On 11 Dec, 18:11, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > You make is sound so relaxing, Pat. I have to add that I do not know > any Muslims and have never met any Muslims which may be one of the > reasons for my apprehensions. However, it is not without any basis, > ie; the Muslim Major Hasan seemed by "ALL" accounts to be one of the > peace loving Muslim persons of whom you speak. Didn't people know him > as such, wasn't he in the US Army? Didn't he shoot and kill US > Soldiers? Was he a fundamentalist, a radical terrorist? > Are we being duped is the real question, are you? >
Although I don't know Major Hasan, I can 'guess' (which is hardly good) that there were conflicts of interest going on in his mind. Muslims consider one another brothers--at least brothers in the faith. Yet the army is sending U.S. Muslims to kill non-U.S. Muslims. This is as much 'brother vs. brother' as we saw in the US Civil War, when members of the same family fought on opposing sides. It destroyed families for generations. In this case, it's caused a conflict of interest in the minds of Muslims who have a duty to their Muslim brothers AND a duty to their country. Not all people resolve the issue in the same way and some, like Major Hasan I assume, crack under the pressure. Remember Hasan's last words before the rampage? "Allahu Akhbar", i.e. "God is greater"; i.e., his loyalty to Islam took over, although he was so far gone mentally that, while he may have got his allegiances correct, his actions were completely opposed to the guidance given BY Islam. At that point, it seems he felt it was better (and I disagree with him completely, BTW) to fight those who were killing his Muslim brothers than to join with them and kill his brother Muslims (and/or support the cause that kills his brother Muslims). So he indiscriminately started shooting. An act that would be considered reprehensible and punishable by death under Shari'a law, as what he did was plain murder, i.e., needless killing. What Hasan was was someone who cracked under the pressure. He failed the test. To pass, he should have resigned his commission from the Army, under ANY circumstances, and just gone back to civilian life. But it's obvious, from his actions, that he wasn't thinking straight. As far as his general motivations, again, I don't know the man. I can reckon, though, from his actions that his loyalty to his Muslim brothers outweighed his loyalty to the U.S. Army at the time of the murders. Personally, I think he was on the verge of the cracking point for months but something tipped him over the edge. Exactly what, I have no idea. Was he a terrorist, probably not, in the sense of an Al-Qaida operative, while what he did certainly instilled terror. Was he a fundamentalist, probably not, in the sense of the late Ayatollah Khomeini or Osama Bin Laden, but held the fundamental belief that he should not support, in any way, the indiscriminate slaughter of innocent Muslims, which is a daily occurrence in the battlefields of Afghanistan and Iraq. Did he shoot and kill U.S. soldiers? Yes. And he was wrong by U.S. AND Islamic standards for doing so. He just cracked and went postal, as it were. Does this action of his reflect on anyone else? No, in no way, shape or form! We are all accountable for ourselves. Should his actions make you nervous of other Muslims? I don't think so. What needs to be looked at, though, is the 'reasoning' behind the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq and, if they are not valid (and we all know they're not), then stop the fighting and prevent U.S. Muslims from having to support a war against their brothers-in-faith. Imagine how many Jews would relish fighting a war against Israel, or Irish-Americans fighting a war against Ireland? But those wars aren't the ones we're presented with at the moment; rather, the current wars put the spotlight on Muslims. What we should be nervous about is entering into wars that, invariably, pit men against men, and THAT will always bring out sub- loyalties. There were plenty of Irish-Americans that lent support in some fashion to either NI or the IRA. But do we castigate all Irish- Americans because of it? Ahh, but they were all Christians. In truth, there were IRA supporters that would tell you that the Protestants were NOT Christians and the Protestants would tell you that the Catholics in the south weren't Christian. So Christians were fighting Christians, but they didn't recognise each other's Christianity. In the case of Iraq and Afghanistan, though, there is no mistake about it, the U.S. Army is forcing U.S. Muslims to either directly kill or support the killing of other Muslims, about whom there is NO doubt regarding their faith. This will cause problems--it has and it will continue to do so. It's a complex problem with a simple answer...stop fighting stupid wars and people won't have THAT reason to get so distraught. But, as we all know, oil is more important than a few (hundred...thousand...million) people. And, yes, that previous sentence is seriously sarcastic. > On Dec 11, 7:58 am, Pat <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On 11 Dec, 07:04, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Religion is still driving it's wedge into the world. I'm beginning to > > > become very wary of the intent of Muslim Immigrants. Little seeds are > > > being planted around the world and Muslim populations are growing. > > > With the shootings by Muslim Hasan in Fort Hood Texas and now the > > > Arrest of 5 Muslim teenagers in Pakistan who supposedly are American, > > > I reject the idea that they were ever American, I'm suspect that > > > Muslims around the world are simply carrying out a long term > > > infiltration tactic without any desire for citizenship but only for > > > the goal of the Muslim world. It may take 50 more years but by then > > > the Muslim population will be very imposing. > > > What do you think of all this Muslim turmoil around the world? I know > > > it's hard to be politically correct and non judgmental but history is > > > littered with attempts at world domination. Truth is I'm beginning to > > > get nervous and simply do not trust Muslims and wonder about their > > > true motive. Is it just paranoia, I don't think so. > > > Islam IS the fastest growing faith and has been for quite some time. > > This is, mostly, due to the fact that Muslims have Muslim children > > (funnily enough) and the growth rate is more down to general > > population growth than conversion rates; that said, there are more and > > more converts as well. So why, then, is that? [that's not a > > rhetorical question but an invitation to fully investigate Islam for > > yourself to discover what there is about it that might attract people > > TO it.] > > What is it about Islam that worries you? The religion itself does not > > promote terrorism, but change through dialogue, so the 'terrorists' > > aren't REALLY 'true Muslims'--they are apostates who have been led > > astray--they are as brainwashed as any follower of Jim Jones or David > > Koresh. Don't be afraid of Muslims--they are simply people who > > acknowledge that it is God that runs the show here on Earth (and, as > > far as I can tell, that is a correct belief!). Rather, be afraid of > > fundamentalism of any variety, for it is fundamentalism--that branch > > of any faith that says, "We're correct and everyone else needs to die > > so that only those that think correctly are left." That was never the > > premiss of Islam, as the Qur'an itself states that religion should not > > be forced on anyone. These fundamentalists feed on our fears. So, > > you're playing into their hands with your mistrust of Muslims, as they > > are, for the vast majority, just like everyone else on the planet-- > > trying to just get through another day. Take each one as they present > > themselves to you. If you want to react in a Christian fashion > > towards them, then that would be: Judge not, lest ye be judged. > > Muslims worship God by being mindful of Him in many ways throughout > > the day, and Jesus said that loving God was the greatest commandment. > > So they follow that teaching--probably beter than most Westerners who > > consider themselves Christian. The second greates commandment > > (according to Jesus) was "to love your neighbour as yourself". But > > you are mistrusting/distrusting people and the only thing you may know > > about them is that they are Muslim. How fair is that? > > It's my belief that God will judge us by certain standards. Some of > > those standards we set ourselves. That is, he will judge us as fairly > > as we have judged others. In that way, injustice can always be > > redressed in the Hereafter. This life is only a test for an eternal > > existence. Don't let the fundamentalists of ANY faith turn you > > against other believers of that faith who are NOT fundamentalists. It > > could be a dangerous practice; after all, Jesus warned: judge not, > > lest ye be judged (similarly). Don't play into the hands of the > > fundamentalists by fearing and mis/distrusting Muslims, as that is > > what they hope will be the divisive reaction that grants them the > > grounds for claiming general bias. > > I encounter Muslims on a daily basis. At work, at the local shop, in > > taxis, etc. And NONE of them have ever acted in a way that I would > > consider problematic. What makes ME nervous is people taking a > > dislike to people they don't know simply because they are different-- > > when, really, we are ALL different; because it's THAT attitude that > > both Christian and Muslim fundamentalists are hoping will bring us to > > the all-glorious Armageddon that they both think they'll win. They > > can't BOTH be right; but, they could both be wrong, in that there ARE > > no winners of Armageddon. > > > If, as you are tending towards, you think that Muslims will out-number > > the rest of the population in the foreseeable future, then that will > > change the world. But that doesn't, of necessity, mean that that > > change would be bad. It all comes down to implementation. And there > > are Islamic prophecies that indicate that, before Islam does become > > the predominant religion on Earth, it will be 'set back onto the > > straight path' by a 'Clarifier', the Mahdi, or Al-Qa'im. Muslims > > await this individual because they know that there are corrections (to > > the practices of the faith) that need to be made (the abolition of > > female circumcision throughout Islamic Africa would be the first thing > > that leaps out in my mind...but there is a longer list). So wait WITH > > them and watch out FOR him, for it is just THAT kind of individual > > that needs to come onto the world scene fairly soon, as the numbers, > > as you point out, are nearing the mark. > > > PS 'Chanukkah Tovah' for all the Jewish readers out there!! > > > > Excerpt: > > > The citizens of the United States and Canada, as well as many within > > > various echelons of law enforcement, might be surprised to learn that > > > active paramilitary training of Islamic terrorists, who are focused on > > > bringing jihad or holy war into America on a large scale, are > > > currently operating in the United States and Canada. In fact, they > > > have existed inside North America since at least 1980. > > > >http://www.canadafreepress.com/2007/cover061107h.htm > > > > The Islamic "jihadist" Army in our Midst > > > The most astute researchers of Islamic terrorist activities might > > > believe that the so-called "Virginia jihad network," often referred to > > > as the "paintball jihad network," was the first paramilitary training > > > of its kind in America. The "paintball jihad network" consisted of > > > nearly a dozen Muslim men, including Randall "Ismail" Royer, an > > > American convert to Islam and former official of the Council on > > > American Islamic Relations (CAIR), who honed their combat skills > > > through the use of paintball gun exercises with other like-minded > > > Muslims, according to the federal indictment and his subsequent > > > conviction. Others might cite the case of Ernest James UJAAMA, a/k/a > > > Bilal AHMED, (a Muslim convert born James Earnest Thompson), who, > > > according to court documents, attempted to set up an Afghanistan-style > > > terrorist training camp near Bly, Oregon in 1999 as a precursor to > > > physical jihad training in America.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
