Hey Don, One of my greatest pleasures in live is debunking the bunkum that anybody belives in only that which is logical.
We all of course subscribe to some illogical belifes for which we have no or at beast only subjective evidance for. I do get your point though, and this bit right here is at the heart of what I talk about: 'It's not that I claim to know something doesn't exist it's just that my own intellect won't allow for the possibility. Even if I wanted it to.' As I say the intelect says 'here is evidance for belife X' Now armed with such evidance you claim that the same intelect denies you choice in the matter of belife X. So I ask again do we really have choice of belife? On 23 Jan, 22:19, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > I would say that for you and I it is not properly, knowledge, that the > > earth orbits the sun. We trust the scientists. So when you say "try as > > I might I cannot bring myself to 'belive' that the sun revolves around > > the earth" it is because your trust in the scientists is great. So is > > mine. Even so, it is not properly knowledge, that the earth orbits the > > sun, for we who have not conducted the relevant experiments. > > > Now, why could not at first simply choose to believe God is, on the > > trust of others who say so, as one trust the scientists, who say the > > earth moves? For all the novice knows the demonstrations of God demand > > as much intellectual work as following the evidence the earth moves. > > But as life is short, one chooses in whom to believe, than what. > > What's the impediment to belief? > > I have an answer to this. I believe what is logical. I'm sure 200 > years ago I wouldn't have believed that man could fly in big metal > cylinders with wings. Preposterous! But... then I am shown how a > sail works. How a foil works. Then I am shown how a wing is a foil > and then observe experiments that cause lift. So, logically, even > though I haven't completely studied aerodynamics and I don't > completely understand the intricacies of the physics involved I can > still now see how flying is possible. > > I see no such proof of God. > > I can see the sky and the moon and stars and when explained to me why > the night sky changes and how gravity from the moon affects the tides > and how the relationship of our orbit around the sun interacts with > the other planets orbits it all makes sense. I see the logic even > though I don't understand how gravity works and the sun stays together > and all that. I just know that it does because I see it every day. > > I don't see God everyday. > > I get your point on taking things on faith. This has been brought up > before. But some things are less of a stretch of logic then others > even if I don't fully understand them. It's not that I claim to know > something doesn't exist it's just that my own intellect won't allow > for the possibility. Even if I wanted it to. > > -Don > > > > > > > On Jan 19, 4:18 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > >> Heh heh Alan only ten post in for the first 'real' answer to my query, > >> my thanks. > > >> I find myself disagreeing with you, and here is why: > > >> Obstenisbly you talk of knowedge here, and it is true that once you > >> gain knowledge in any sphere you are likely to have a change in your > >> views. I find that try > > >> I do have not performed the experiments to determine our orbit around > >> our sun, and like you I belive that we do. However now I have this > >> knowledge, garnered by those who have come before me, I find that try > >> as I might I cannot bring myself to 'belive' that the sun revolves > >> around the earth. > > >> I have an inkling our Pat has much to say about this and causeality, > >> and in this instance I find that I may well agree with him. Now now > >> Pat don't get over excited dear. > > >> On 18 Jan, 23:53, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > "do we really choose to have faith in God's existence", you wonder. > >> > You suspect not. > > >> > One could choose to believe God exists, just as one could choose to > >> > believe the earth orbits the sun. Billions have done both. Speaking > >> > for myself, I do not know the earth orbits the sun, because I have not > >> > taken the time to conduct the necessary experiments. I have no doubt > >> > it does because I trust that the scientists have done their work well. > >> > But for myself it is not properly called "knowledge" that the earth > >> > moves. Rather, I have chosen to trust the scientists on this point. > > >> > Now one could do the same thing with God: believe God is, on the trust > >> > in other credible people. And that is good enough for children. But it > >> > is really only the faith of parents and teachers alive in the > >> > children. > > >> > But eventually one grows up, works through the proofs of God, and that > >> > knowledge is perfected. That God exists exists is /not/ an article of > >> > faith for those who can follow the proofs, just as "the earth orbits > >> > the sun" is /not/ an article of faith for those who have conducted the > >> > relevant experiments. Faced with a truth that can be known by reason > >> > or faith, a person has an option to convert it from an article of > >> > faith to a conclusion of reason. > > >> > Even so, there is a world of difference between "I believe X" and "I > >> > believe in X". The man for whom God's existence is not an article of > >> > faith but a conclusion of reason, has only begun. He knows God is > >> > (because he followed the proofs), and he knows it with the certainty > >> > he knows two is a prime number, and with far greater certainty than > >> > the scientist knows earth orbits the sun (which is, after all, an > >> > empirical conclusion, and subject to correction by future facts). He > >> > knows God is. But does he believe in God? > > >> > On Jan 18, 9:32 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > So I have been away for a week(damn me am the only IT bod in the world > >> > > without Internet access at home,this is NOT the question) and when I > >> > > come back i see all sorts of rows and arguments and I guess what can > >> > > only be described as 'bad bood' > > >> > > Those of you who know me well enough by now know that one of my things > >> > > is the concept of 'free will' and it is something along these lines > >> > > that I want to ask you about. > > >> > > Choice of belifes. I was asked elswhere a while back on some Sikh > >> > > forum or other why I choose to belive that the entity we know as God > >> > > exists. After thinking about it for a while I realised that I > >> > > couldn't really answer this question in any way other then: > > >> > > 'Good question Agnostic Ji. > > >> > > Do we really choose to have faith in God's existance though? Can we > >> > > literaly choose what we wish to belive or not? > >> > > Lets try it, please try to choose to belive that God exists and let us > >> > > know what happens. > >> > > I suspect that I can no more choose not to belive in God than I have > >> > > chossen the opposite.' > > >> > > Am I right? Rather like one's sexual preferance, is it true that one > >> > > can choose to belive in God or not? > > >> > > Ian I'm look at you my friend.- Hide quoted text - > > >> > - Show quoted text - > > > -- > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > For more options, visit this group > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
