Bees do not commit suicide as far as I know Lee. But they do 'choose' to kill their own dissidents. It's all in the beelife.
On 27 Jan, 09:41, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > Hey Don, > > One of my greatest pleasures in live is debunking the bunkum that > anybody belives in only that which is logical. > > We all of course subscribe to some illogical belifes for which we have > no or at beast only subjective evidance for. > > I do get your point though, and this bit right here is at the heart of > what I talk about: > > 'It's not that I claim to know something doesn't exist it's just that > my own intellect won't allow for the possibility. Even if I wanted it > to.' > > As I say the intelect says 'here is evidance for belife X' Now armed > with such evidance you claim that the same intelect denies you choice > in the matter of belife X. > > So I ask again do we really have choice of belife? > > On 23 Jan, 22:19, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 3:53 PM, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > I would say that for you and I it is not properly, knowledge, that the > > > earth orbits the sun. We trust the scientists. So when you say "try as > > > I might I cannot bring myself to 'belive' that the sun revolves around > > > the earth" it is because your trust in the scientists is great. So is > > > mine. Even so, it is not properly knowledge, that the earth orbits the > > > sun, for we who have not conducted the relevant experiments. > > > > Now, why could not at first simply choose to believe God is, on the > > > trust of others who say so, as one trust the scientists, who say the > > > earth moves? For all the novice knows the demonstrations of God demand > > > as much intellectual work as following the evidence the earth moves. > > > But as life is short, one chooses in whom to believe, than what. > > > What's the impediment to belief? > > > I have an answer to this. I believe what is logical. I'm sure 200 > > years ago I wouldn't have believed that man could fly in big metal > > cylinders with wings. Preposterous! But... then I am shown how a > > sail works. How a foil works. Then I am shown how a wing is a foil > > and then observe experiments that cause lift. So, logically, even > > though I haven't completely studied aerodynamics and I don't > > completely understand the intricacies of the physics involved I can > > still now see how flying is possible. > > > I see no such proof of God. > > > I can see the sky and the moon and stars and when explained to me why > > the night sky changes and how gravity from the moon affects the tides > > and how the relationship of our orbit around the sun interacts with > > the other planets orbits it all makes sense. I see the logic even > > though I don't understand how gravity works and the sun stays together > > and all that. I just know that it does because I see it every day. > > > I don't see God everyday. > > > I get your point on taking things on faith. This has been brought up > > before. But some things are less of a stretch of logic then others > > even if I don't fully understand them. It's not that I claim to know > > something doesn't exist it's just that my own intellect won't allow > > for the possibility. Even if I wanted it to. > > > -Don > > > > On Jan 19, 4:18 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> Heh heh Alan only ten post in for the first 'real' answer to my query, > > >> my thanks. > > > >> I find myself disagreeing with you, and here is why: > > > >> Obstenisbly you talk of knowedge here, and it is true that once you > > >> gain knowledge in any sphere you are likely to have a change in your > > >> views. I find that try > > > >> I do have not performed the experiments to determine our orbit around > > >> our sun, and like you I belive that we do. However now I have this > > >> knowledge, garnered by those who have come before me, I find that try > > >> as I might I cannot bring myself to 'belive' that the sun revolves > > >> around the earth. > > > >> I have an inkling our Pat has much to say about this and causeality, > > >> and in this instance I find that I may well agree with him. Now now > > >> Pat don't get over excited dear. > > > >> On 18 Jan, 23:53, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > "do we really choose to have faith in God's existence", you wonder. > > >> > You suspect not. > > > >> > One could choose to believe God exists, just as one could choose to > > >> > believe the earth orbits the sun. Billions have done both. Speaking > > >> > for myself, I do not know the earth orbits the sun, because I have not > > >> > taken the time to conduct the necessary experiments. I have no doubt > > >> > it does because I trust that the scientists have done their work well. > > >> > But for myself it is not properly called "knowledge" that the earth > > >> > moves. Rather, I have chosen to trust the scientists on this point. > > > >> > Now one could do the same thing with God: believe God is, on the trust > > >> > in other credible people. And that is good enough for children. But it > > >> > is really only the faith of parents and teachers alive in the > > >> > children. > > > >> > But eventually one grows up, works through the proofs of God, and that > > >> > knowledge is perfected. That God exists exists is /not/ an article of > > >> > faith for those who can follow the proofs, just as "the earth orbits > > >> > the sun" is /not/ an article of faith for those who have conducted the > > >> > relevant experiments. Faced with a truth that can be known by reason > > >> > or faith, a person has an option to convert it from an article of > > >> > faith to a conclusion of reason. > > > >> > Even so, there is a world of difference between "I believe X" and "I > > >> > believe in X". The man for whom God's existence is not an article of > > >> > faith but a conclusion of reason, has only begun. He knows God is > > >> > (because he followed the proofs), and he knows it with the certainty > > >> > he knows two is a prime number, and with far greater certainty than > > >> > the scientist knows earth orbits the sun (which is, after all, an > > >> > empirical conclusion, and subject to correction by future facts). He > > >> > knows God is. But does he believe in God? > > > >> > On Jan 18, 9:32 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> > > So I have been away for a week(damn me am the only IT bod in the > > >> > > world > > >> > > without Internet access at home,this is NOT the question) and when I > > >> > > come back i see all sorts of rows and arguments and I guess what can > > >> > > only be described as 'bad bood' > > > >> > > Those of you who know me well enough by now know that one of my > > >> > > things > > >> > > is the concept of 'free will' and it is something along these lines > > >> > > that I want to ask you about. > > > >> > > Choice of belifes. I was asked elswhere a while back on some Sikh > > >> > > forum or other why I choose to belive that the entity we know as God > > >> > > exists. After thinking about it for a while I realised that I > > >> > > couldn't really answer this question in any way other then: > > > >> > > 'Good question Agnostic Ji. > > > >> > > Do we really choose to have faith in God's existance though? Can we > > >> > > literaly choose what we wish to belive or not? > > >> > > Lets try it, please try to choose to belive that God exists and let > > >> > > us > > >> > > know what happens. > > >> > > I suspect that I can no more choose not to belive in God than I have > > >> > > chossen the opposite.' > > > >> > > Am I right? Rather like one's sexual preferance, is it true that one > > >> > > can choose to belive in God or not? > > > >> > > Ian I'm look at you my friend.- Hide quoted text - > > > >> > - Show quoted text - > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [email protected]. > > > For more options, visit this group > > > athttp://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
