Not quite sure what you are getting at here Neil? You belive such a belife is a choice perhaps?
Can you choose to belive the opposite I wonder? On 19 Jan, 02:24, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > I've always wondered about converts Lee, in the 'scientist dissecting > their heads' kinda way. The worst tend to be ultra-rightists who used > to be lefties, but the fervour of all converts seems much the same > (you are an excellent exception, but before taking praise on board, > remember that only makes you are more interesting dissection > specimen). Sue and I will never vote Labour again, but fear not - we > look so bad in lederhosen we're going for the Liberals or Greens. I'd > prefer to vote for a party like those German guys who shout > 'Applejuice' at Nazis. My rather wandering point is that people > change their world-views pretty totally sometimes, both into and out > of religion, as often into agnosticism as between faiths of > denominations. It's also pretty clear now that we do have a godspot > in the brain and this varies in impact between us. Many very > brilliant people are also subject to delusions that seem to come from > the same place (on their reports). > The usual stuff about believing in god seems forced on most people by > 'socially approved epistemic authority'. They use all kinds of > tricks, a bit like the shits trying to bully my grandson into giving > up his Muslim friends at the moment. I choose not to believe in any > god that any group believes in as they are all tarnished one way or > another, but I suspect many of us are more concerned with something > very different than god in the sense 'he' is normally dealt out to us. > > Deep philosophy can't really find the ground on which there is a > science versus religion argument that is remotely rational - one does > not equate out the other unless one simply follows dogma rather than > 'truth'. Dawkins v the Archbishop of Canterbury is really promoted by > the literary equivalents of Frank Warren. One can be spiritual > without god, and a combination of evolution and modern work on self- > organisation suggests we are not on a wholly determined path. One can > read Kant, but then discover Prichard saying the opposite: ‘Knowledge > is sui generis and therefore a ‘theory’ of knowledge is impossible. > Knowledge is knowledge, and any attempt to state it is terms of > something else must end in describing something which is not > knowledge’. More modern again, we find that we can only do our best > with what is undecidable - god questions surely being that. > It seems fit for me to broadly reject belief in god and that this view > can be particular to me as what might make you be a seeker Lee (and so > on). Only irrationality would make this difference important. What > one swallows in faith though is often much more than the innocence of > truth-seeking. > > On 18 Jan, 23:53, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > "do we really choose to have faith in God's existence", you wonder. > > You suspect not. > > > One could choose to believe God exists, just as one could choose to > > believe the earth orbits the sun. Billions have done both. Speaking > > for myself, I do not know the earth orbits the sun, because I have not > > taken the time to conduct the necessary experiments. I have no doubt > > it does because I trust that the scientists have done their work well. > > But for myself it is not properly called "knowledge" that the earth > > moves. Rather, I have chosen to trust the scientists on this point. > > > Now one could do the same thing with God: believe God is, on the trust > > in other credible people. And that is good enough for children. But it > > is really only the faith of parents and teachers alive in the > > children. > > > But eventually one grows up, works through the proofs of God, and that > > knowledge is perfected. That God exists exists is /not/ an article of > > faith for those who can follow the proofs, just as "the earth orbits > > the sun" is /not/ an article of faith for those who have conducted the > > relevant experiments. Faced with a truth that can be known by reason > > or faith, a person has an option to convert it from an article of > > faith to a conclusion of reason. > > > Even so, there is a world of difference between "I believe X" and "I > > believe in X". The man for whom God's existence is not an article of > > faith but a conclusion of reason, has only begun. He knows God is > > (because he followed the proofs), and he knows it with the certainty > > he knows two is a prime number, and with far greater certainty than > > the scientist knows earth orbits the sun (which is, after all, an > > empirical conclusion, and subject to correction by future facts). He > > knows God is. But does he believe in God? > > > On Jan 18, 9:32 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > So I have been away for a week(damn me am the only IT bod in the world > > > without Internet access at home,this is NOT the question) and when I > > > come back i see all sorts of rows and arguments and I guess what can > > > only be described as 'bad bood' > > > > Those of you who know me well enough by now know that one of my things > > > is the concept of 'free will' and it is something along these lines > > > that I want to ask you about. > > > > Choice of belifes. I was asked elswhere a while back on some Sikh > > > forum or other why I choose to belive that the entity we know as God > > > exists. After thinking about it for a while I realised that I > > > couldn't really answer this question in any way other then: > > > > 'Good question Agnostic Ji. > > > > Do we really choose to have faith in God's existance though? Can we > > > literaly choose what we wish to belive or not? > > > Lets try it, please try to choose to belive that God exists and let us > > > know what happens. > > > I suspect that I can no more choose not to belive in God than I have > > > chossen the opposite.' > > > > Am I right? Rather like one's sexual preferance, is it true that one > > > can choose to belive in God or not? > > > > Ian I'm look at you my friend.- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
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