Heh heh Alan only ten post in for the first 'real' answer to my query,
my thanks.

I find myself disagreeing with you, and here is why:

Obstenisbly you talk of knowedge here, and it is true that once you
gain knowledge in any sphere you are likely to have a change in your
views.  Is such change real choice though?

I do have not performed the experiments to determine our orbit around
our sun, and like you I belive that we do.  However now I have this
knowledge, garnered by those who have come before me, I find that try
as I might I cannot bring myself to 'belive' that the sun revolves
around the earth.

I have an inkling our Pat has much to say about this and causeality,
and in this instance I find that I may well agree with him.  Now now
Pat don't get over excited dear.

On 18 Jan, 23:53, Alan Wostenberg <[email protected]> wrote:
> "do we really choose to have faith in God's existence", you wonder.
> You suspect not.
>
> One could choose to believe God exists, just as one could choose to
> believe the earth orbits the sun. Billions have done both. Speaking
> for myself, I do not know the earth orbits the sun, because I have not
> taken the time to conduct the necessary experiments. I have no doubt
> it does because I trust that the scientists have done their work well.
> But for myself it is not properly called "knowledge" that the earth
> moves. Rather, I have chosen to trust the scientists on this point.
>
> Now one could do the same thing with God: believe God is, on the trust
> in other credible people. And that is good enough for children. But it
> is really only the faith of parents and teachers alive in the
> children.
>
> But eventually one grows up, works through the proofs of God, and that
> knowledge is perfected. That God exists exists is /not/ an article of
> faith for those who can follow the proofs, just as "the earth orbits
> the sun" is /not/ an article of faith for those who have conducted the
> relevant experiments. Faced with a truth that can be known by reason
> or faith, a person has an option to convert it from an article of
> faith to a conclusion of reason.
>
> Even so, there is a world of difference between "I believe X" and "I
> believe in X". The man for whom God's existence is not an article of
> faith but a conclusion of reason, has only begun. He knows God is
> (because he followed the proofs), and he knows it with the certainty
> he knows two is a prime number, and with far greater certainty than
> the scientist knows earth orbits the sun (which is, after all, an
> empirical conclusion, and subject to correction by future facts). He
> knows God is. But does he believe in God?
>
> On Jan 18, 9:32 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > So I have been away for a week(damn me am the only IT bod in the world
> > without Internet access at home,this is NOT the question) and when I
> > come back i see all sorts of rows and arguments and I guess what can
> > only be described as 'bad bood'
>
> > Those of you who know me well enough by now know that one of my things
> > is the concept of 'free will' and it is something along these lines
> > that I want to ask you about.
>
> > Choice of belifes.  I was asked elswhere a while back on some Sikh
> > forum or other why I choose to belive that the entity we know as God
> > exists.  After thinking about it for a while I realised that I
> > couldn't really answer this question in any way other then:
>
> > 'Good question Agnostic Ji.
>
> > Do we really choose to have faith in God's existance though? Can we
> > literaly choose what we wish to belive or not?
> > Lets try it, please try to choose to belive that God exists and let us
> > know what happens.
> > I suspect that I can no more choose not to belive in God than I have
> > chossen the opposite.'
>
> > Am I right?  Rather like one's sexual preferance, is it true that one
> > can choose to belive in God or not?
>
> > Ian I'm look at you my friend.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
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