“…Religion, on the other hand, does claim completeness, and resists (by default) changes to the ideology.” – chris
“I know of precious few religions that make such a claim. Almost no one claims to know what god actually is.” – orn “Christianity Judaism Islam Hindu Shinto Say again?” – chris OK, since you are not making a claim with the above question, I’ll assume that you meant to imply that those religions “claim completeness, and resists (by default) changes to the ideology.” If you didn’t mean to imply this, then one can ignore the rest of my post and you can clarify what, if anything, you were saying. To save time, I’ll go into the topic in detail so that most of my assumptions will not have to be ferreted out. I’ll also repost a little more of your original post for the context: “A notable difference between scientific thought and religious thought is that scientific thought does not in any way claim to be complete; it is ever evolving and growing as the volume of total observations grows. Religion, on the other hand, does claim completeness, and resists (by default) changes to the ideology.” - chris As I’ve pointed out numerous times over the years, there is no religion (in the context of our current discussion) that is separate from the notions and thoughts of people. The same is true for science. You even used the terms ‘scientific thought’ and ‘religious thought’ above. So, with that as a given, we can continue. As a quick aside, I find it strange to take the role of an apologist for religion(s)…not adhering to a specific theology nor embracing faith nor revelation as stated earlier…and clearly not even being near the ‘creationist’ that you so rudely attempted to impose upon me. Continuing… As far as I know, there is no monolithic point of view of any of the theologies you listed Chris. I’m sure you have some thoughts about each as do I. Also, millions of other people have their own subjective views of each ‘religion’ (or, more accurately, ‘religious thought’) too…each having their own spin. Yes, I know that there are specific tenets involved. Some would embrace the ten commandments. Others would embrace sheria law. The list could continue for a long time, no? And, in almost every if not actually every case, there would be those who disagree with the tenets listed. This is what I mean by no monolithic view or thought about any religion. Yes, we do each have some vague set of beliefs about what these religions consist of…yet when examined, there is no full agreement at all about any of them. Your original claim had to do with a comparison between scientific thought and religious thought… making the proposition that they differed in that the former makes no claims as to being complete while the latter does. It is true that many scientists will change their beliefs if and when other scientists present a better model and/or experiment methodology showing a preferable reality. So, in this way scientific thought can change over time. There may be examples to the contrary, but that would be for a different topic. It is also true that some religious thinkers are rigid when it comes to some of their beliefs about reality. Now we come to your specific claim about ‘completeness’…a notion that is not clearly defined. So, I hope you will excuse me if my guess as to your meaning does not quite fit, OK? When you changed your terms from ‘religious thought’ to ‘religion’, a subtle difference was possibly introduced. By using ‘religion’, it may appear to be easier to imply and/or impose a monolithic point of view upon some nebulous ‘thing’ rather than individual thinkers. So, this is my first point… there is no pure religious thought just as there is no pure ideology when it comes to practice let alone human expression of their thinking thereof. I can list examples even though I’m in no way an expert on religion and I’m sure you could to. I have Muslim friends who completely disagree with the views and actions of the more radical ‘terrorist’ types…and I would hazard a guess that the reverse is true too. And here, I’m not even addressing other Muslim sects such as Sufis…who’s views are rejected by many too. The obvious examples in Christianity are legion. Every way of thinking exists…from Catholic views to Protestant, from Baptist to Charismatic, from Universalists to KKK members…all claiming to be ‘Christians’ when it comes to their belief systems. Jewish thinking can be found to be Orthodox or Reformed along with countless other verities of viewpoints too. I’m not an expert on Hindus but would hazard a guess that the same is true there as with Shinto thought too. So, since there is and *always* has been divergent thinking when it comes to theological ideology, clearly there can be no valid claim when it comes to any sort of ‘completeness’…that is as long as one doesn’t include the ‘completeness’ of human thinkers being different and always changing. Now perhaps you meant some sort of ‘official’ view of what any given religious thinking *should be*. This of course is a different issue. And, one could take the Catholic church and it’s pope as an example and point out many of the numerous changes in their tenets that have been promulgated over even the last few decades. Different Muslim Imams are known to do the same as are Jewish rabbis. Again, since my knowledge about religions in general is slim, I will only hazard a guess that the last two are similar. So, one can only conclude that in reality, ‘religions’ do not make the claims as to being ‘complete’ as you say they do Chris. Now I do understand that it is a common atheistic tactic to impose authority and thinking upon ‘religious thinkers’, but it just doesn’t match reality. Now you may have noticed that I originally said that I knew of ‘precious few religions that make such a claim’. And that the qualifier of ‘few’ was used because, in fact, I know of none but do not presume to know about all religions and their members and their religious thinking. So, there in fact may be some. I just don’t know of any. I followed this up with something I’m not sure has been addressed or not. And that was that “Almost no one claims to know what god actually is.” Perhaps Pat is one exception. Perhaps there is the religious thinker her and there who hold tight to some sort of belief as to the exact nature of the divine, but again, even the most central point of theologies includes an area always ripe for discussion and examination for those so interested. In fact, I do find such ‘changes’ in thinking over the ages to be quite similar to how scientific thinking evolves. One merely finds a preferable model to impose upon what is perceived to be real. I hope that you don’t decide to just attack my last paragraph instead of the rest of this post. I know this last isn’t fully thought out yet… but did want to address all of my original post. On Jan 29, 10:36 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > Christianity > Judaism > Islam > Hindu > Shinto > > Say again? > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:34 PM, ornamentalmind > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > “…Religion, on > > the other hand, does claim completeness, and resists (by default) > > changes to > > the ideology.” – chris > > > I know of precious few religions that make such a claim. Almost no one > > claims to know what god actually is. > > > On Jan 29, 6:38 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Is this correct Chris? There is no faith required in an emprical > > > > stance? > > > > > I don't think it is you know. We all belive that the Earth revolves > > > > around the sun despite not having personaly conducted any experiments > > > > ourselves. We belive instead the data from those who have perfomed > > > > such experiments. > > > > > So then I personly have no experiance of the above yet it is > > > > certianly what I belive to be true. I must belive it because I trust > > > > the works of others, there is a little faith in that surley? > > > > Aha!, he says...I've got him! But not so much, my friend. This is the > > same > > > argument that's been bandied about forever; I'm surprised you don't have > > my > > > response memorized. In scientific axioms, we do accept that the data > > > provided by someone else is accurate. We have the option, however, to > > > approach that experiment for ourselves, and measure and test those axioms > > > using the scientific process. The hallmark of empirical observation is > > > reproducibility, and we know that a billion times out of a billion, > > dropping > > > this rock in my controlled laboratory will result in it landing on the > > > floor. Ah, but wait! Isn't it possible that on the billion and first try, > > it > > > might float? We have a certain surety in our empirical processes due to > > the > > > reproduction factor, but since we accept that our knowledge is not > > absolute, > > > we (or our proxies) continue to study and test the data, perform more > > > complex observation, and keep a healthy sense of skepticism with regards > > to > > > ALL of our learned scientific knowledge. > > > > A notable difference between scientific thought and religious thought is > > > that scientific thought does not in any way claim to be complete; it is > > ever > > > evolving and growing as the volume of total observations grows. Religion, > > on > > > the other hand, does claim completeness, and resists (by default) changes > > to > > > the ideology. > > > > > To love also, yes we can see and test emotions, but as every teenager > > > > will know some times when a person say 'I love you' they may not be > > > > telling the truth. I am loved, my wife oves me, of this I am certian. > > > > By her words, by her actions, know all of this, empricaly I know it. > > > > She could though be living a lie, there is really no way for me know > > > > that for sure, other than her telling me. So I belive that all of her > > > > words and all of her actions that have lead me to the conclusion that > > > > she loves me are true. There is certianly an element of faith in that > > > > too. > > > > > Ultimatly though, we will all belive as we will, for good or for ill, > > > > logic, empricalism, faith, can you really tell me which methoed of > > > > though is best? Can you then show me the evidance why you belive > > > > this? Can you show me certian objective evidance? > > > > > Myself, I 'belive' that all three are important for all of us, I deny > > > > that anybody can live by logic, empircalism, or faith alone, and > > > > further I 'belive' that to even try to do so does a person no good. > > > > Hah but that is just a belief of mine, based on some faith, some > > > > logical deductive reasoning and some empircal experiance. > > > > > On 28 Jan, 14:39, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > On each of those topics, no faith is required in an empirical stance. > > > > > Emotions exist, are measurable, have an underlying physiological > > > > mechanism, > > > > > which can be fine tuned or adjusted via externalities. Intuition is > > > > > subconscious analysis. We do it, it's observable, and as would be > > > > expected, > > > > > is certainly nothing like "ESP". Vitality, attention? I don't > > understand > > > > > their inclusion. By vitality, do you mean how energetic someone is, > > or > > > > how > > > > > healthy? Why would that be a matter of faith? Same with > > attention...how > > > > is > > > > > focus a faith issue? Charm? Do you mean an accelerated understanding > > and > > > > > capability within interpersonal ritualistic behaviour? Love is easy > > as > > > > > well...assuming you're willing to define it first. > > > > > > Those who think that science doesn't cover all the tenets and facets > > of > > > > > human behaviour, aren't viewing those things from a scientific > > > > perspective, > > > > > which makes sense...once you begin to analyze them from a scientific > > > > > perspective, they lose their mystery, and there is an appeal to the > > > > mystery, > > > > > for those who need faith. > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:31 AM, ornamentalmind < > > > > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > I wonder about “having faith in” things like: emotions, intuition, > > > > > > vitality, attention, charm etc. How does that work? Does one > > require > > > > > > having ‘empirical’ proof of such things? Note that I’ve left ‘love’ > > > > > > off of the list too. > > > > > > > On Jan 28, 5:57 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > > wrote: > > > > > > > Yes, Pat, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We > > know. > > > > > > > > However, you're mistaking the empiricist stance, as so many > > theists > > > > do. > > > > > > > > I will believe something when I am presented with empirical > > evidence > > > > for > > > > > > its > > > > > > > existence. Until such time, I do not expend belief. There is no > > > > empirical > > > > > > > evidence for a soul, therefore I do not believe in such a thing. > > You > > > > have > > > > > > > faith that souls are comprised of fields of energy. I do not. You > > > > have > > > > > > faith > > > > > > > that humans possess souls to begin with. I do not. This is not a > > > > faith > > > > > > based > > > > > > > stance; it's a faithless stance. I'm not sure why that concept is > > so > > > > > > > difficult for those with faith to understand. Did you start out > > with > > > > > > faith, > > > > > > > and simply can't conceive of not believing in something not > > > > implicitly > > > > > > > proven? Neither Ian nor I have implicitly stated "There is no > > soul, > > > > there > > > > > > is > > > > > > > no God". We simply note that lacking evidence for such, we can't > > have > > > > > > faith > > > > > > > in it. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Pat < > > [email protected] > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 28 Jan, 12:55, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 28 January 2010 12:30, Pat < > > [email protected]> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So, it boils down to the fact that you have faith that > > there is > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > 'soul'. Okey doke, I can accept that. > > > > > > > > > > Got a name for that straw man, Pat? :) > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to make a tyrant of logic here, but if someone > > > > claims > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > existence of non-material soul then evidence for that claim > > must > > > > be > > > > > > > > > supplied. Russell, teapot, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > > > > And I asked you on what basis you derived your belief that ther > > eis > > > > no > > > > > > > > soul. It boiled down to your faith rather than any evidence. > > > > There > > > > > > > > is no Russell's Teapot! Besides, my definition of a soul is a > > > > 'field > > > > > > > > of energy' and if you refute fields of energy, well... Yes, I > > know > > > > > > > > that particular one hasn't been empirically proven...yet, but > > that > > > > > > > > does not mean that it does not exist; rather, it only means it > > > > hasn't > > > > > > > > been discovered yet. If you recall, there was a time when > > Uranus > > > > and > > > > > > > > Neptune hadn't been discovered; did they only pop into > > existence > > > > when > > > > > > > > the telescope landed there? And the whole Russell's Teapot > > thing > > > > is > > > > > > > > so naff I'm surprised anyone falls for that logic. As I've > > said > > > > > > > > before many times, just because you have not detected something > > is > > > > not > > > > > > > > evidence that it does not exist. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > > Google > > > > > > Groups > > > > > > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > > [email protected]. > > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > > > [email protected]<minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hidequotedtext > > - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > > Groups > > > > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > [email protected]<minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > > > . > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hidequoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > -- > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > Groups > > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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