Christianity Judaism Islam Hindu Shinto Say again?
On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 1:34 PM, ornamentalmind <[email protected]>wrote: > “…Religion, on > the other hand, does claim completeness, and resists (by default) > changes to > the ideology.” – chris > > I know of precious few religions that make such a claim. Almost no one > claims to know what god actually is. > > > On Jan 29, 6:38 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > On Fri, Jan 29, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > Is this correct Chris? There is no faith required in an emprical > > > stance? > > > > > I don't think it is you know. We all belive that the Earth revolves > > > around the sun despite not having personaly conducted any experiments > > > ourselves. We belive instead the data from those who have perfomed > > > such experiments. > > > > > So then I personly have no experiance of the above yet it is > > > certianly what I belive to be true. I must belive it because I trust > > > the works of others, there is a little faith in that surley? > > > > Aha!, he says...I've got him! But not so much, my friend. This is the > same > > argument that's been bandied about forever; I'm surprised you don't have > my > > response memorized. In scientific axioms, we do accept that the data > > provided by someone else is accurate. We have the option, however, to > > approach that experiment for ourselves, and measure and test those axioms > > using the scientific process. The hallmark of empirical observation is > > reproducibility, and we know that a billion times out of a billion, > dropping > > this rock in my controlled laboratory will result in it landing on the > > floor. Ah, but wait! Isn't it possible that on the billion and first try, > it > > might float? We have a certain surety in our empirical processes due to > the > > reproduction factor, but since we accept that our knowledge is not > absolute, > > we (or our proxies) continue to study and test the data, perform more > > complex observation, and keep a healthy sense of skepticism with regards > to > > ALL of our learned scientific knowledge. > > > > A notable difference between scientific thought and religious thought is > > that scientific thought does not in any way claim to be complete; it is > ever > > evolving and growing as the volume of total observations grows. Religion, > on > > the other hand, does claim completeness, and resists (by default) changes > to > > the ideology. > > > > > > > > > > > > > To love also, yes we can see and test emotions, but as every teenager > > > will know some times when a person say 'I love you' they may not be > > > telling the truth. I am loved, my wife oves me, of this I am certian. > > > By her words, by her actions, know all of this, empricaly I know it. > > > She could though be living a lie, there is really no way for me know > > > that for sure, other than her telling me. So I belive that all of her > > > words and all of her actions that have lead me to the conclusion that > > > she loves me are true. There is certianly an element of faith in that > > > too. > > > > > Ultimatly though, we will all belive as we will, for good or for ill, > > > logic, empricalism, faith, can you really tell me which methoed of > > > though is best? Can you then show me the evidance why you belive > > > this? Can you show me certian objective evidance? > > > > > Myself, I 'belive' that all three are important for all of us, I deny > > > that anybody can live by logic, empircalism, or faith alone, and > > > further I 'belive' that to even try to do so does a person no good. > > > Hah but that is just a belief of mine, based on some faith, some > > > logical deductive reasoning and some empircal experiance. > > > > > On 28 Jan, 14:39, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > On each of those topics, no faith is required in an empirical stance. > > > > Emotions exist, are measurable, have an underlying physiological > > > mechanism, > > > > which can be fine tuned or adjusted via externalities. Intuition is > > > > subconscious analysis. We do it, it's observable, and as would be > > > expected, > > > > is certainly nothing like "ESP". Vitality, attention? I don't > understand > > > > their inclusion. By vitality, do you mean how energetic someone is, > or > > > how > > > > healthy? Why would that be a matter of faith? Same with > attention...how > > > is > > > > focus a faith issue? Charm? Do you mean an accelerated understanding > and > > > > capability within interpersonal ritualistic behaviour? Love is easy > as > > > > well...assuming you're willing to define it first. > > > > > > Those who think that science doesn't cover all the tenets and facets > of > > > > human behaviour, aren't viewing those things from a scientific > > > perspective, > > > > which makes sense...once you begin to analyze them from a scientific > > > > perspective, they lose their mystery, and there is an appeal to the > > > mystery, > > > > for those who need faith. > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 9:31 AM, ornamentalmind < > > > [email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > I wonder about “having faith in” things like: emotions, intuition, > > > > > vitality, attention, charm etc. How does that work? Does one > require > > > > > having ‘empirical’ proof of such things? Note that I’ve left ‘love’ > > > > > off of the list too. > > > > > > > On Jan 28, 5:57 am, Chris Jenkins <[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > > Yes, Pat, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. We > know. > > > > > > > > However, you're mistaking the empiricist stance, as so many > theists > > > do. > > > > > > > > I will believe something when I am presented with empirical > evidence > > > for > > > > > its > > > > > > existence. Until such time, I do not expend belief. There is no > > > empirical > > > > > > evidence for a soul, therefore I do not believe in such a thing. > You > > > have > > > > > > faith that souls are comprised of fields of energy. I do not. You > > > have > > > > > faith > > > > > > that humans possess souls to begin with. I do not. This is not a > > > faith > > > > > based > > > > > > stance; it's a faithless stance. I'm not sure why that concept is > so > > > > > > difficult for those with faith to understand. Did you start out > with > > > > > faith, > > > > > > and simply can't conceive of not believing in something not > > > implicitly > > > > > > proven? Neither Ian nor I have implicitly stated "There is no > soul, > > > there > > > > > is > > > > > > no God". We simply note that lacking evidence for such, we can't > have > > > > > faith > > > > > > in it. > > > > > > > > On Thu, Jan 28, 2010 at 8:46 AM, Pat < > [email protected] > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > On 28 Jan, 12:55, Ian Pollard <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > On 28 January 2010 12:30, Pat < > [email protected]> > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > So, it boils down to the fact that you have faith that > there is > > > no > > > > > > > > > 'soul'. Okey doke, I can accept that. > > > > > > > > > > Got a name for that straw man, Pat? :) > > > > > > > > > > I don't want to make a tyrant of logic here, but if someone > > > claims > > > > > the > > > > > > > > existence of non-material soul then evidence for that claim > must > > > be > > > > > > > > supplied. Russell, teapot, etc. > > > > > > > > > > Ian > > > > > > > > > And I asked you on what basis you derived your belief that ther > eis > > > no > > > > > > > soul. It boiled down to your faith rather than any evidence. > > > There > > > > > > > is no Russell's Teapot! Besides, my definition of a soul is a > > > 'field > > > > > > > of energy' and if you refute fields of energy, well... Yes, I > know > > > > > > > that particular one hasn't been empirically proven...yet, but > that > > > > > > > does not mean that it does not exist; rather, it only means it > > > hasn't > > > > > > > been discovered yet. If you recall, there was a time when > Uranus > > > and > > > > > > > Neptune hadn't been discovered; did they only pop into > existence > > > when > > > > > > > the telescope landed there? And the whole Russell's Teapot > thing > > > is > > > > > > > so naff I'm surprised anyone falls for that logic. As I've > said > > > > > > > before many times, just because you have not detected something > is > > > not > > > > > > > evidence that it does not exist. > > > > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the > Google > > > > > Groups > > > > > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > > > > To post to this group, send email to > [email protected]. > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > > > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > > > > . > > > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hidequoted text > - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > > > -- > > > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > > > Groups > > > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > > > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > > > . > > > > > For more options, visit this group at > > > > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.-Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text - > > > > > -- > > > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google > Groups > > > ""Minds Eye"" group. > > > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > > > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > <minds-eye%2bunsubscr...@googlegroups.com> > > > . > > > For more options, visit this group at > > >http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text - > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. > To unsubscribe from this group, send email to > [email protected]<minds-eye%[email protected]> > . > For more options, visit this group at > http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en. > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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