In real research one has to look at a massive number of sources. Many papers, even in peer review these days are worthless, or as near as damnit, especially if viewed without much knowledge of what is really being done in the experiments. Antibiotics work in two main ways - some as antiseptics that attack the germs, some that corral the germs to allow the immune system time to form antibodies. When one sees the results of really effective treatments being described pretty simple experimentation and numbers makes this clear cut, a bit like the effects of bleach or decent hygiene. Much science is not like this. Orn is right we are being hornswaggled. The answer to type 2 diabetes probably lies in dolphins - they can switch it on and off. So we are after the genetic connection, hoping to find the switch, hoping we have it and so on. I doubt praying will help, but I'm also sure faith in giant pharma profits isn't much help either. Lots of drugs work by getting the body to do something by signalling. We may be learning to develop new ways of such signalling. Placebo is interesting because it seems we can 'con' ourselves into such 'signalling'. This is something we lose as we differentiate, and stem cells don't.
There is a classic con going on similar to what Orn is pointing to in the political use of 'statistics'. The methods employed are completely corrupted. Doctors are by no means 'immune'. The classic con is to ask irrelevant populations what they think is happening and not to ask the obviously relevant population or work out what makes such a specific population relevant, different and so on. Some of what's going on is so bad it's like giving acupuncture to people bleeding to death and concluding it don't work, or giving it to groups likely to survive and then asking the grateful relatives and patients whether they think it does. We could have web sites where all relevant information is published and available free so discussions and evaluation would not be done without the basic data - yet we don't. On 24 Feb, 15:37, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > As is the case with science and other relative pursuits… I > provisionally accept specific memes that appear to be rational and/or > make sense to me for some reason or another until I learn otherwise. > So, I’ve ‘asked’ a lot of questions about big pharma as well as things > religious. The ongoing process finds me at specific points of > understanding at any given moment that are always subject to change… > moving up or down the scale. > > On Feb 24, 2:31 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Then ask a lot. ;¬) > > > On 23 Feb, 18:24, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > "... It's all about trust and questioning the motives of > > > such soruces though isn't it?" - Lee > > > > Perhaps ....but that alone is asking a lot. > > > > On Feb 23, 3:54 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Hah yes indeed OM, we can all find sources which prove black is white > > > > and white is red. It's all about trust and questioning the motives of > > > > such soruces though isn't it? > > > > > On 23 Feb, 11:44, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > One can find research to support almost any point of view Lee. > > > > > >http://scholar.google.com/scholar?q=placebo+effect+cancer&hl=en&as_sd... > > > > > > A Wired UK article just told us a dirty little secret that the > > > > > pharmaceutical drug world would rather keep quiet. That fact is: drugs > > > > > are having a difficult time beating the placebo effect, and > > > > > increasingly so. In fact, they're finding the placebo effect is > > > > > getting stronger in people, making it more difficult for drugs to show > > > > > any improvement over it. The credit for the increased placebo effect > > > > > has been attributed to the increase in consumer advertising, which > > > > > makes many consumers "believe" more in the drugs and their effects. > > > > > Because the placebo effect is getting stronger, many widely > > > > > distributed drugs would have had a hard time getting approval to begin > > > > > with, if they were tested against today's placebo effect. Many drugs, > > > > > notably Prozac, have also been shown to falter when compared to > > > > > placebo - after they're already on the > > > > > markethttp://www.naturalnews.com/027129_placebo_placebo_effect_drugs.html > > > > > > Psych Drug Shocker: Antidepressant Drugs Work No Better than Placebo; > > > > > Big Pharma Hoax Finally > > > > > Exposedhttp://www.naturalnews.com/022723_placebo_depression_antidepressants.... > > > > > > Is acupuncture nothing more than a dressed-up placebo effect? Not > > > > > according to a recent joint MIT-Harvard Medical School clinical study. > > > > > The study, published in the November 2008 issue of the peer-reviewed > > > > > science journal Behavioural Brain Research, utilized functional > > > > > magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) and positron emission tomography > > > > > (PET) to examine the effects of acupuncture in relieving > > > > > pain.http://www.naturalnews.com/025057_acupuncture_placebo_the_brain.html > > > > > > Even though placebos do not act on the disease, they seem to have an > > > > > effect in about 1 out of 3 > > > > > patients.http://www.cancer.org/docroot/ETO/content/ETO_5_3x_Placebo_Effect.asp > > > > > > Placebos have helped alleviate pain, depression, anxiety, Parkinson's > > > > > disease, inflammatory disorders and even cancer. > > > > > Placebo Effect: A Cure in the Mind > > > > > Belief is powerful medicine, even if the treatment itself is a sham. > > > > > New research shows placeboes can also benefit patients who have no > > > > > faith in > > > > > them.http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=placebo-effect-a-cur... > > > > > > On Feb 23, 1:49 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > I don't think we can rule out the power of placebo, but on the other > > > > > > hand I can see it doing something like cancer no good at all. In > > > > > > fact > > > > > > I recall there was a study done last year umm perhaps the year > > > > > > before > > > > > > that? About the effect the power of a positive attitude can have on > > > > > > cancer patients. There is no effect. > > > > > > > On 22 Feb, 16:01, ornamentalmind <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > The link to the study of physicians I posted months ago that > > > > > > > concluded > > > > > > > from them that as much as 80% of their treatments were consciously > > > > > > > associated or centered upon a placebo effect I found astonishing > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > instructive. > > > > > > > > On Feb 22, 7:32 am, Slip Disc <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > I'm with the MP's > > > > > > > > > They argued the effectiveness was often unpredictable and > > > > > > > > involved a > > > > > > > > deception by the medical establishment. (This makes sense if > > > > > > > > there is > > > > > > > > any placebo effect with the treatment then there essentially is > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > treatment) > > > > > > > > > They also warned it could lead to a delay in diagnosis if > > > > > > > > symptoms > > > > > > > > were cured but the underlying reason for them was not tackled. > > > > > > > > (I would agree with that and have to add relapse may occur > > > > > > > > later on > > > > > > > > with the lack of diagnostic information) > > > > > > > > > The MPs also criticised the drugs regulator, the Medicines and > > > > > > > > Healthcare products Regulatory Agency, for allowing medical > > > > > > > > claims to > > > > > > > > be made. (I don't understand how medical claims could be made > > > > > > > > on such > > > > > > > > treatment > > > > > > > > > Now if the politicians would apply this type of scrutiny to all > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > areas of running the country, I think things might well improve > > > > > > > > Lee! > > > > > > > > > On Feb 22, 5:55 am, Lee <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > What do we make of this? > > > > > > > > > >http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/8524926.stm > > > > > > > > > > Bloody good idea, what! > > > > > > > > > > It somewhat restores my faith in politicians.- Hide quoted > > > > > > > > > text - > > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
