“You think this bill is simple? It's a lot of things but simple isn't one of them....” – DJ
Uhhh, no. I haven’t mentioned the term ‘simple’ in this context *ever*. Where did you get that idea? It is comments like that which make it difficult to discuss such things with you Don. It’s beyond straw man argumentation, it is downright non-sequitur. “…What I'm getting from you is that you think this bill will be better then what we've had….” – DJ Well, again, I’m not sure which set of people you include in ‘we’ here. I’m sure that the Insurance companies are giddy about it. I’m sure that others are too. “Better?”, I really don’t know. Long ago I said I was against it…back when the single payer option was ignored by the Democratic Party and it’s leadership. From that point on, I’ve been predicting an abject failure. I *do* say that “what we’ve had” is in general what one gets when they bend over….know what I mean? And, I guess I’ll take a moment to address a few of your opinions about the result of the bill. a) People will get health care who couldn’t afford it before. Agreed b) Millions of people will be paying for this and waiting in longer lines with less service. Well, *if* one assumes that someone hasn’t been paying for indigent care for decades, perhaps the first part is correct…otherwise, no, it isn’t. As to the last part, while I agree that there aren’t enough health care professionals available here in the USA, the list of reasons is available and often directly related to not being able to give quality care because of Insurance company bottom-line administration of what procedures will be covered and what will not. Yes, there are many others but that is another topic. So, “longer lines” will only peripherally be a result of this bill. The long lines have been in existence for a long time and, as said above, partially caused by the for-profit nature of what is euphemistically called “health care” here. Will there be less service? Clearly not for those who prior to this had none at all. What about for the rest of the people? I doubt if there will be much if any difference. The Insurance companies will find more ways to implement their fortune hunting ways as will big Pharma. The former will still be immune to anti-trust laws…the only industry here with that status. They have one of the few products (reimbursement for services rendered) where the consumer, you and I, have no way of knowing what we are purchasing and further know that they will make more money by denying such reimbursement. Any other business that had this model would be laughed out of existence!...except by the stock holders perhaps. “…I suppose you think this bill will help to reduce fraud…” – DJ Uhhh, no. I haven’t said any such thing nor has any person who thinks at all that I know said let alone implied such a thing. Straw man? Or is it just your debate ‘style’…putting silly things in other people’s mouths? Either way, I don’t like it. Perhaps you just use such deceptive tactics to bolster your position. Either way, it doesn’t work that way. And, since my guess is that you have a list of acceptable and not acceptable ‘entitlements’, where do you think the most expensive fraud might be found? (rhetorical question) The answer of course rests in the most expensive part of the federal budget, the military (industrial complex). “…I do not deny there is greed and avarice in this world. This new law isn't going to change that. All it will do is give the D.C. power brokers more power and influence to enrich themselves and their friends and make it HARDER for the average citizen to elevate themselves to a higher level of financial freedom…” – DJ I never thought you would deny this. Nor did I even suggest that the new law would do any good when it comes to greed. Your words, not mine. And, if you think that “the D.C. power brokers” need more power and influence…I don’t. Here I’m guessing you mean lobbyists, right? And, so far, I’ve not found a definition for “the average citizen” Don. Are you average? Inquiring minds want to know. Am I average? Is Obama average? Who isn’t average? Oh, right, those who live on Lake Wobegon! IF it is your personal feeling that you already have to work too hard, quit whining about it and do something. IF you want to ‘elevate’ yourself to ‘a higher level of financial freedom’ (a euphemism if ever there was one), just do it! For those with the actual talent to make more money than they will ever need, such an end is easy. Ask them. Personally, since it is a pyramid scheme, only the wise know when to get off of the treadmill as well as the ideological teat of the ones holding the carrots. “… You may call it unfounded if you want but it is inevitable…” – DJ Again, I’m not sure if you are being disingenuous here or just on autopilot…what I said was: “The rest of your rhetoric is mostly unfounded, trite and misses the point greatly. Ideologically, you project all sorts of things on a simple attempt at helping citizens reduce their fear about health care in the USA. The evidence of how this works worldwide is obvious and shows that we have a lot further to go…regardless of the fears and polarizing going on.” - orn I repost in case you missed it the first time. This next part is just plain incomprehensible to me. “…A noble goal if it is your assets and the fruits of your labor that goes to do this. Not noble, IMO, when it's taken by force from one to be divided up to special interests by politicians. This is inevitable….” – DJ Perhaps you would like to unpack what you mean here…thought by thought? As presented, it could mean anything. Tell us how you really feel Don, OK? ;-) “…As I've said before, we can agree that some people need and deserve help but it should be voluntarily provided. America has long proved our generosity to needy peoples around the world…” – DJ Hmm, a point of agreement…some people need *and* deserve help. Great! And, yes volunteering is a good thing. I volunteer 5 days a week at a non-profit, at least while I’m looking for a paid job in this economy that Wall Street brought us all…that along with the Bush mandated entitlement packages to the private sector. Oh, I do notice that you ignore the vast majority of my major points. One can only assume that you agree with them. Skipping ahead since I don’t have all day to devote to this one post… “… If they would just leave us alone I feel I could take good care of my family on my own but taxes are KILLING ME. Property, fees, energy bills, water bills, capital gains, AARRGG…” – DJ As you know, we both agree that the tax structure is askew. We have had this discussion. Of course, if you don’t like it, find a country with a better system and move there, OK? ;-) [I just love using the old “Love it or leave it.” Saw!!! :D ] “…The more I think about it the more problems I see. What has been allowed to happen is a travesty and only those who fail to see the big picture think otherwise….” – DJ Too much catastrophizing here Don. Perhaps too much Beck too!! We do agree that “what has been allowed to happen is a travesty” though. And here I’m talking about how we arrived at the current moment…you know, the “big picture”? “…It's not the end of the world but it is now a harder and more expensive world. Expect taxes and fees to go up. I'm pissed…” – DJ Hmmm, a harder and more expensive ‘world’…interesting. Somehow, I don’t see things as being different. Yes, inflation has existed…at least as long as I’ve been alive. (a long time!) So, that is ‘normal’. As to things being ‘harder’…I do agree that since the tax burden has been shifting from the rich to the poor over the last handful of decades here in the States, for those of us not in the upper crust things have become more difficult. The ‘answer’ though is not to add more burden still to the poor. The ‘answer’ is not to just complain. Yes, you see taxes and fees going up…this is no accident. It is a direct result of a carefully planned economic system. “Pissed” we all should be. On Mar 24, 1:34 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 10:06 PM, ornamentalmind > <[email protected]>wrote: > > > > > > > We agree on one thing Don, the tax structure is askew. Perhaps we > > should work in the areas where we see eye to eye, OK? Somehow, this > > point seems to go missing all too easily. > > > The rest of your rhetoric is mostly unfounded, trite and misses the > > point greatly. Ideologically, you project all sorts of things on a > > simple attempt at helping citizens reduce their fear about health care > > in the USA. The evidence of how this works worldwide is obvious and > > shows that we have a lot further to go…regardless of the fears and > > polarizing going on. Some of the stuff on TV today harkened back to > > the Civil War! Hopefully, rather than looking for fights, we can find > > some sort of unity…no, not utopia, for clearly, you don’t want utopia. > > > Your parting shot is not that well thought out Don. If, in fact, that > > is your stance, you do not apply your ideology to all facets of > > political nor economic life. Perhaps a review of the principle of > > universality would be in order. > > You think this bill is simple? It's a lot of things but simple isn't one of > them. What I'm getting from you is that you think this bill will be better > then what we've had. This is very unlikely. Yes, some people will get > access to free health care and this could be good for them but not for the > millions of other folks that will be paying for it AND waiting in long lines > for less attention to their needs. I suppose you think this bill will help > to reduce fraud. Not true. New ways will be found to cheat; I assure you. > This will INCREASE fraud exponentially. Just like most other entitlements. > > I do not deny there is greed and avarice in this world. This new law isn't > going to change that. All it will do is give the D.C. power brokers more > power and influence to enrich themselves and their friends and make it > HARDER for the average citizen to elevate themselves to a higher level of > financial freedom. You may call it unfounded if you want but it is > inevitable. I think Fran understands this but is willing to sacrifice the > benefits of a capitalist system for the sake of more charity to the > underprivileged. A noble goal if it is your assets and the fruits of your > labor that goes to do this. Not noble, IMO, when it's taken by force from > one to be divided up to special interests by politicians. This is > inevitable. > > As I've said before, we can agree that some people need and deserve help but > it should be voluntarily provided. America has long proved our generosity > to needy peoples around the world and because of that I resent a little > Fran's blog post on HCR that seems to me to be a bit condescending. I feel > it wasn't meant that way but people like me will see it that way I'm > afraid. We have many years to see how this will play out but even the best > case scenario doesn't look good. > > I now have a burr under my saddle to see what benefits I can get for my > autistic son. He is MUCH less capable the you, Fidd. He is probably over > medicated but when I tried to ween him off his meds a couple of years ago > disaster struck. He's dependent now and that's life. I have signed hm up > through DARS and am starting the paper work to get guardianship and get on > the gravy train. I feel a little dirty but it's the only way to get some > money back from the greedy politicians. If they would just leave us alone I > feel I could take good care of my family on my own but taxes are KILLING > ME. Property, fees, energy bills, water bills, capital gains, AARRGG. > > I give up. I'm getting in line for my cut of government's ill gotten > gains. It makes me feel a little ashamed but I feel I'm backed into a > corner here. I'm going to try to go on the hand out list and if I need to > take a pay cut to get on it I may go ahead and get another job that doesn't > pay as well. I'll have to weigh the cost/benefit. If I'm at home more I > can stop paying the house cleaner and do more of my own yard work. > > Do you see how my situation is going to be repeated several thousand times > over with other Americans? Do you see how this will affect the economy? > The more I think about it the more problems I see. What has been allowed to > happen is a travesty and only those who fail to see the big picture think > otherwise. Please don't tell me how this hasn't ruined Switzerland or > England or Denmark or nameyoursocialistcountry. We are not these other > countries and I think this will become painfully obvious in the coming > decade. Yes, it will take several years before the negative consequences > will start to appear. > > It's not the end of the world but it is now a harder and more expensive > world. Expect taxes and fees to go up. I'm pissed. > > dj > > > > > > > On Mar 23, 3:47 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > On Tue, Mar 23, 2010 at 1:43 AM, ornamentalmind > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > When it comes to ‘assets’, perhaps for some, life itself could be seen > > > > as being same. However, for the poor, health and will being just may > > > > not be possible in a system as draconian as the …what should we call > > > > it?...it isn’t a ‘health care’ system today…an insurance-hospital for > > > > profit system perhaps?...is today. Of course, the term ‘insurance’ has > > > > become conflated with ‘healthcare’. They *are* quite different things. > > > > Countless other models today can confirm this. > > > > > And, IF one is to be treated in all ways based on how much money one > > > > has, that about matches reality today, no? My guess Don, is that you > > > > receive, proportionately, *much* better health care than you should… > > > > compared say to Bill Gates. Perhaps we should change the law and give > > > > you worse care? > > > > > Sadly, the youth of today have no idea how healthcare was dispensed > > > > say, in the 40s and 50s. As the US was reaching its zenith in many > > > > ways, people didn’t have to worry about healthcare. There was an > > > > understanding, as there is in almost every civilized western > > > > industrialized country, that health care *is* a right…similar to food > > > > and shelter. It isn’t even debated! > > > > My goodness. So basically what your saying is you think the World > > > owes EVERYONE a living. Wow. I'll tell you what, you write the > > > check. We have charity hospitals and clinics which could be much > > > better privately funded without the truly Draconian taxes the middle > > > class is being saddled with. Congress may call it 'premiums' or > > > 'fines' if they want. What it is is a tax. Back in the 50's folks > > > hardly ever went to the doctor. They went when they had to. Now most > > > folks go at least twice a year. If something is really wrong you get > > > treated whether you can pay for it or not. Perhaps not a Cadillac > > > treatment but treatment just the same. You may get a bill but if > > > you're poor, you don't pay and we don't have debtors prisons here in > > > this country. In the vernacular; this bill SUCKS. > > > > Do you believe everyone has the 'right' to live in a mansion with > > > servants and eat caviar and lobster every day? No? If yes, how, pray > > > tell, would that work economically? Utopia cannot exist. We can > > > dream but in the end that's all it is. The system we are moving > > > towards REMOVES freedoms. It makes it harder to succeed. The wealth > > > generating opportunities of the 80's and 90's are gone. Just gone. > > > With every extra tax collected and every dollar congress wastes we are > > > impoverishing ourselves that much more as a country. > > > > > Somehow, avarice became the watchword for the US rather than notions > > > > like freedom, egalitarianism, democracy, compassion, love etc. There > > > > is a reason that greed is seen as a poison/sin in almost every > > > > theology on the planet…it poisons the human psyche…along with > > > > everything that particular psyche touches. > > > > There is greed and there is ambition. We should encourage ambition, > > > not remove incentive. Compassion is good. It should be voluntary, > > > however. I curse coercive compassion. > > > > dj > > > > > On Mar 22, 10:22 pm, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > > > >> I see insurance as what it is and should be. Something to protect > > > >> your assets should something catastrophic befall you. Such as disease > > > >> or illness or fire or flood. If you have no assets(say, if you're > > > >> dirt poor) ya don't need no stinkin' insurance. That's the way I've > > > >> always seen it. I really don't get how people see something as a > > > >> right that is really nothing of the sort. That doesn't mean that we > > > >> should ignore the poor that are sick but it DOES mean they certainly > > > >> don't deserve the same level of care as those of us who can afford > > > >> better care. > > > > >> I was in court today to take care of some business. I was there for 2 > > > >> and a half hours. I saved roughly 250 dollars by seeing the judge > > > >> and not just paying my tickets. You sit in pews until the row ahead > > > >> of you is empty and then your row moves up one row. Cell phones > > > >> turned off and nobody talking to each other. I sat there bored stiff > > > >> thinking "yeah, in a few years, this is what it will be like at the > > > >> doctors office." I was aching to pop off and say it out loud but was > > > >> scared the judge would hear me. All these big city judges are > > > >> bleeding heart liberals. Last thing I wanted to do was piss off the > > > >> judge. > > > > >> Got me to thinking seeing all these guys and dolls sitting there bored > > > >> out of their minds. They should open up kiosks with hot dogs and > > > >> jewelry and maybe a bar with mixed drinks and sodas while you wait. > > > >> Maybe a bank of those cool poker slot machines. We'd all be a little > > > >> less bored the the city could make a little more profit. Ooops. > > > >> There's the P word. > > > > >> dj > > > > >> On > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text - -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. To post to this group, send email to [email protected]. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [email protected]. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/minds-eye?hl=en.
