Okay Orn I do understand Rigs corrupt comment, I think fossilized may be a better word because different beliefs have frozen the meanings of what they say and their personal church interpretation is the rock solid absolute truth,, and there is no other truth and that is unchanging. which makes it corrupt. In my opinion beliefs should be evolving, except people want things unchanging.
Transcendentalism has been around for a long time ,, people became aware of it in the '60's semi drug culture. I think more in a effort to justify abusing drugs, but that does not make the concept invalid. as for joining system I understand why,, it is very difficult to stand alone in what you believe it is far easier when you have someone else to agree with you and back up what you day, it does not matter if it is wrong or right all that matters is you have someone to shift or share the blame with. Allan 2011/2/9 ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > "Haven't all systems failed in the long run?" - rigs > No > > "It seems to me that humans are lost without joining a system that > bestows an identity they can fashion their life and beliefs around- a > purpose- yet they all wind up being corrupted whether religion, > philosophy, politics, economics, etc. I wonder what will happen in the > USA when Municipal Bonds dive?// " - rigs > > Is this meant to be irony?...or just an example of one of the systems > you believe in and find purpose in and are learning is corrupted? > > "I see transcendentalism as a link to the drug culture of the '60's." > - rigs > > Oh, yes, and milk is a gateway drug! ;-) Truth is, many were glad to > find an easy way to experience something beyond their current > patterns. Entheogens have been around as long as humans have existed. > Of course, as has always been the case, one fairly quickly learns the > temporary nature of drug induced 'wisdom'. > > "...As for the cave as metaphor, I think it has several interpretations > beyond blind escape from the world." - rigs > > No doubt! In fact, I've never heard of that interpretation rigsy. > > > On Feb 9, 4:47 am, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > Haven't all systems failed in the long run? It seems to me that humans > > are lost without joining a system that bestows an identity they can > > fashion their life and beliefs around- a purpose- yet they all wind up > > being corrupted whether religion, philosophy, politics, economics, > > etc. I wonder what will happen in the USA when Municipal Bonds dive?// > > I see transcendentalism as a link to the drug culture of the '60's. > > There's a great cartoon of Emerson as a giant eyeball on a stroll by > > Christopher Cranch- maybe you can Google it.//As for the cave as > > metaphor, I think it has several interpretations beyond blind escape > > from the world. > > > > On Feb 9, 2:08 am, iam deheretic <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No Orn it is not enough that would be a choice to be blind to the > realities > > > of life..living in a closed world. now thinking about it it is like a > lot of > > > the fossilized religions of today. > > > Allan > > > > > 2011/2/9 ornamentalmind <[email protected]> > > > > > > Perhaps if one knows they are in a cave, it is enough? > > > > > > On Feb 8, 3:49 pm, Ash <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Of which chosen one we might apply this to the philosophy or the > woman, > > > > > but of the ensuing catastrophe it seems certain that most would > choose > > > > > to struggle with their relinquished liberation and responsibility > rather > > > > > than face the struggle with the self and megalomania. Humility > might be > > > > > enough to keep our footing and prevent falling into a self prison > where > > > > > we will thrash around with figments and projections of the real. > Perhaps > > > > > we are each chosen to step out of the cave, as it seems something > only > > > > > one may do for oneself. > > > > > > > Any way simply does not seem 'right' > > > > > > > On 2/8/2011 6:30 AM, ornamentalmind wrote: > > > > > > > > No...actually, for some, attaching to a personal epistemology and > > > > > > convincing themselves that it is reality works too. > > > > > > > > On Feb 8, 2:07 am, gabbydott<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >> Ah! I see the problem! Elevating the personal philosophy to a > > > > transpersonal > > > > > >> one, would mean entering the realm of religion, would mean no > choice > > > > but > > > > > >> being the chosen one, which either suits my personal philosophy > or it > > > > > >> doesn't. Is that all that keeps us going? > > > > > > > >> On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 3:25 AM, Ash<[email protected]> > wrote: > > > > > >>> It is astonishing to delve into Daoism again, so elegantly it > > > > describes my > > > > > >>> long struggle with identity. How could I forget? The > fundamental > > > > precepts of > > > > > >>> my nature that have stood in stark contrast, this is far too > > > > convenient and > > > > > >>> significant.. In my view I see all as nature and the > transcendent a > > > > growth > > > > > >>> or exploration beyond the horizon that today I can only feel > the pull > > > > and > > > > > >>> draw of the innermost. I would certainly enjoy hearing more > from > > > > someone who > > > > > >>> has chosen this path as their personal philosophy! > > > > > >>> On 2/6/2011 5:51 PM, �zen wrote: > > > > > >>>> On Jan 31, 4:00 am, Ash<[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > >>>>> Hello and greetings Aezen my replies are mixed in the post > below. > > > > > >>>>> On 1/29/2011 10:47 PM, zen wrote: > > > > > >>>>> This is my first post here, so I thought that this post I > shared > > > > in > > > > > >>>>>> another group would actually be a good introduction here =] > > > > > >>>>>> *** > > > > > >>>>>> "There are 2 ways to live your life. One is as though > nothing is a > > > > > >>>>>> miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle." > > > > > >>>>>> - Einstein > > > > > >>>>>> In science, nature - or at least energy - is taken to be > something > > > > > >>>>>> inert and void of consciousness. Only from some quirk in the > > > > evolution > > > > > >>>>>> of chemistry arising in abiogenises, that engenders > evolution of > > > > life > > > > > >>>>>> is consciousness derived in ever more intricate and > developed ways > > > > of > > > > > >>>>>> expression. > > > > > >>>>>> However, on the quantum level, it is the interaction of > basic > > > > energies > > > > > >>>>>> that give rise to the fundamental forces - the laws of > natural > > > > > >>>>>> behaviour (also referred to as the fundamental > interactions). > > > > These > > > > > >>>>>> most basic interactions of energy give rise to all the > variety of > > > > > >>>>>> chemical, biological relationships. That again go on to > evolve > > > > ever > > > > > >>>>>> further, to the point that the interaction of individuals > gives > > > > rise > > > > > >>>>>> to society, and then nations and global poltics and > economics. Yet > > > > no > > > > > >>>>>> matter the level of relationship or interaction we want to > > > > discuss, > > > > > >>>>>> all relationships are built out of the same fundamental > > > > relationships > > > > > >>>>>> between energies. > > > > > >>>>>> To suggest that consciousness may exist in energy, yet just > like a > > > > bit > > > > > >>>>>> in a computer, a lone quanta of energy doesn't do very much. > But > > > > build > > > > > >>>>>> up the bits and a computer can do amazing things - but all > from > > > > the > > > > > >>>>>> same fundamentals of a simple 'On& Off'. Similarly, > energy > > > > could > > > > > >>>>>> simply be consciousness in an undeveloped 'raw' form. > > > > > >>>>>> "God sleeps in the rock, dreams in the plant, stirs in the > animal, > > > > and > > > > > >>>>>> awakens in man." > > > > > >>>>>> - Ibn al 'Arabi > > > > > >>>>>> I am not referring to the God of any scripture. But > Einsteins > > > > > >>>>>> 'pantheistic' leniency towards seeing nature as divine. > > > > > >>>>>> And I agree. I do not believe that a rock is conscious in > the same > > > > > >>>>>> sense as we ordinarly define consciousness... but that the > very > > > > same > > > > > >>>>>> interactions that have coellesced in a particular way to > form a > > > > rock > > > > > >>>>>> are the same that have have formed different relationships > that > > > > have > > > > > >>>>>> formed our biology. > > > > > >>>>>> I'm basically dancing around the point that we are very much > > > > divine > > > > > >>>>>> entities, that our lives are spiritual experiences - > however, that > > > > > >>>>>> doesn't entail the need for an individual soul. Merely that > there > > > > is > > > > > >>>>>> one eternal universal soul that we are apart of. > > > > > >>>>>> You can intepret this in a religious context... but I don't > see > > > > the > > > > > >>>>>> need. If that is as it is, then that is simply it. And as > much, > > > > > >>>>>> science is the best tool we have to explore nature. In that > sense, > > > > > >>>>>> science, in my opinion, must realise that it IS very much a > guide > > > > on > > > > > >>>>>> morality& ethics, because it explains to us who we are > and why > > > > we are > > > > > >>>>>> as best it can. > > > > > >>>>>> That rational argument must be the only true way to derive > our > > > > ethics > > > > > >>>>>> because it opens things up to be tested and see if they hold > true. > > > > > >>>>>> What consquences do our actions have? And how can we improve > them, > > > > and > > > > > >>>>>> improve ourselves? > > > > > >>>>> Yes, and the philosophy of science at times will call our > attention > > > > to > > > > > >>>>> cultural anthropology or other fields as they merit, all > within > > > > science > > > > > >>>>> IMO. I myself have a very high regard for science as an > evolving > > > > > >>>>> paradigm spanning all things, especially the living which > devise > > > > tools > > > > > >>>>> to interpret environmental information. In my personal belief > > > > science is > > > > > >>>>> complementary to nature. > > > > > >>>>> Very much so. A tool to better understand and even percieve > > > > nature. > > > > > >>>> When at peace, when my mood is amenable to it, or otherwise > thrust > > > > into > > > > > >>>>> consciousness like the most apparent truth I feel very > similarly. > > > > At > > > > > >>>>> times I hold both perspectives in equanimity, > transcendentalist and > > > > > >>>>> naturalist, I have no expression for it.. > > > > > >>>> The feeling is mutual. However, I dislike the notion of > > > > > >>>> transcendentalism. I prefer to consider it as more a > permeation of, > > > > or > > > > > >>>> merging with the more sublime essence of nature, rather than > rising > > > > > >>>> above it. > > > > > >>>> I am very much into Buddhist and Daoist philosophies. > Though, I > > > > > >>>>>> consider myself a 'Bukist' (my nickname amongst friends is > Buk =] > > > > )... > > > > > >>>>>> I believe that progress of an individual can only be made > when > > > > they > > > > > >>>>>> believe that they can live up to the highest moral ideals - > even > > > > if we > > > > > >>>>>> don't know what they are, to at least believe we can try and > > > > discover > > > > > >>>>>> them > > > > > >>>>>> I am neither a pessimist nor an optimist, yet a little of > both. > > > > > >>>>>> Buddhism has taught me the value of balance between all > extremes. > > > > The > > > > > >>>>>> middle path. All things in moderation - even moderation in > > > > moderation! > > > > > >>>>> As a good friend says it, "All things in moderation, > especially > > > > > >>>>> moderation." > > > > > >>>>> It is healthy to explore the variety of life, yet even > better is > > > > to > > > > > >>>>>> come to understand the cycles of our own habits as > individuals, > > > > and > > > > > >>>>>> our general habits as humans. I believe that by being aware > of our > > > > > >>>>>> potential to cause harm form our animalistic nature, to our > > > > ability to > > > > > >>>>>> be influenced under social pressures allows us to begin to > free > > > > > >>>>>> ourselves from them - to understand our nature and help > express it > > > > in > > > > > >>>>>> productive and creative ways. To choose the things that > infuences > > > > us. > > > > > >>>>>> Before I finish. I will say that I realise Buddhism as a > religion > > > > is > > > > > >>>>>> full of its own pitfalls of a religion. That it's > socio-economic > > > > > >>>>>> tradition is unsustainable and detrimental to a society. > Yet, the > > > > core > > > > > >>>>>> philosophy - that life is stressful, life is suffering > brought > > > > about > > > > > >>>>>> by our ignorance and attachments to certain things - is a > > > > beautiful, > > > > > >>>>>> apt and in my experience, a true teaching of our human > > > > ... > > > > read more >> -- ( ) I_D Allan If you can bear to hear the truth you've spoken Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools,
