Again my friend I agree, man sure does interpret scripturein a biased manner.
Again I don't argue against determinisim, but I question the level of effect it has on rational, thinking beings, and I alo simply do not belive choice within a limitted scope is not free. As I say I may wish to fly unadied by machines, but cannot due to the confineds of my body, however I can still fly if that is my wish. My choice may be restricted, but it is still ther for me to make. Choice. We make many choices everyday. Either do A or do not do A. The fact that my choice is limited to one of these does not negate the fact that I can still make that choice. Undoubedlty you may question, what in my past has determined what my choice may be, unknownst to me, in my subcociouse. I say such a belife is grounded in the very act of beliefe itself. Unless one can point to all that you say may determine choice then to take the stance of determinism based upon this is at best an educated guess, and at worst unsubstanciated belife. On Mar 3, 4:52 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > Man interprets the Scriptures in a biased manner , but if you look > closely and take into account diverse verses you will find that the > meaning is quite clear. Science is so advanced now that the laws of > biology , genetics , psychology etc. give credence to the faith in > determinism. You say there are conditions, but I see conditions within > conditions. > > On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 10:04 PM, [email protected] > > > > <[email protected]> wrote: > > Quite poetic really RP. > > > I can't help but wonder how many ways this passage could be > > interpreted though. That addition of the word heart makes me think > > automaticly that the power of love can move anything. > > > Does this really suggest then God literaly controls us, or indeed our > > movments, or could it perhaps suggest that Gods love moves the hearts > > of man? > > > On Mar 3, 3:35 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> I am quoting a verse from the last chapter of the Bhagvadagita :- > >> The Lord abides in the hearts of all beings , Oh Arjuna , causing them > >> to move around by His power as if they were mounted on a machine. > > >> You will find similar verses in other Scriptures as well if you take > >> the trouble to look. > > >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, [email protected] > > >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > I think you are correct in some aspects RP. I would call what you > >> > call bondage by a differant name. > > >> > I would name it condition. If your argument is that ther is no > >> > unfettered freedom, that all is dependant on other things then you'll > >> > get no argument from me. > > >> > Everything is conditional. I might like to fly unaided by mechanics, > >> > but I simply cannot. This is a condition of my body, and my species. > > >> > Reason, human reason like much else about us is not static, that is to > >> > say what resonable conclusions I may have made ten years ago, can be > >> > subject to change. > > >> > Of course there are also conditions that apply to our reasoning, I may > >> > never have a larger than avarage IQ, for example. > > >> > On Mar 2, 2:04 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> Lee why do you choose to believe in free will whereas I in bondage? It > >> >> is because our beliefs and reasoning is different. Free will appears > >> >> logical to you whereas to me it does not. Our reasoning is at > >> >> loggerheads because our reasoning faculties and experience is > >> >> different. We are bound by our reason , and this itself is bondage. > >> >> Where is your free choice then? > > >> >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:56 PM, [email protected] > > >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> > Sorry RP I can't get with that at all, as you well know by now. > > >> >> > A persons nature is not static but moves as the person does. It is > >> >> > possible to shake of the products of an 'early envirmonent', hence we > >> >> > have so many atheists from religious households. > > >> >> > Do we all act within the scope of Gods will? > > >> >> > If this is true then no religous text would contain no words of > >> >> > punishment for denying Gods will. They do though, it is clear then > >> >> > that we have a choice to obey or not the will of God. There is a > >> >> > prayer prevalent in more than one of the worlds religions that runs > >> >> > basicly 'not my will ohh lord but yours' > > >> >> > What is the meaning of this? > > >> >> > Does it admit that there is one will and that is Gods, or does it beg > >> >> > God grant me the strenght to obey not my will but yours? > > >> >> > I would obviously plump for the latter. > > >> >> > What is religious dogma if not a list of things designed to get one to > >> >> > God? Why the need for it, if all was Gods will anyway? > > >> >> > On Mar 1, 1:14 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> When a person thinks or acts he does so as if he were the master of > >> >> >> his will but in fact unknown to him various forces within himself are > >> >> >> taking him along as a current takes along a boat in turbulent waters. > >> >> >> Most of the times a man's motives are hidden to him , he acts > >> >> >> ostensibly for some reasons whereas the real motives lie in his > >> >> >> unconscious. This has been dealt in various books of psychology. If > >> >> >> you act according to your nature that nature was given to you by the > >> >> >> Almighty in the form of your genes and early environment , and so > >> >> >> whatever you do it is not your but God's doing. > > >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 5:39 PM, [email protected] > > >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> > Is that true though? Or is it better expresed thusly: > > >> >> >> > My nature has been created by both internal and external influences > >> >> >> > yet is still my nature, and thus is me? > > >> >> >> > What is the differance between a persons nature and a person? Is > >> >> >> > not > >> >> >> > the nature of the man, the man himself? > > >> >> >> > On Feb 28, 5:31 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> My nature consists of the forces within me which bind my freedom > >> >> >> >> of > >> >> >> >> will. In that context it can be said that your nature is separate > >> >> >> >> from > >> >> >> >> you. > > >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:32 PM, [email protected] > > >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> > And you and your nature is seperate? > > >> >> >> >> > On Feb 27, 3:20 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> Whether you adapt or you revolt , in either case it is not you > >> >> >> >> >> but > >> >> >> >> >> your nature which makes the choice. > > >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 7:06 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> > >> >> >> >> >> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> > Adaption may be phoney/false in order to survive/prosper/get > >> >> >> >> >> > along. > >> >> >> >> >> > Afterall, a child is controlled in beliefs and behaviors by > >> >> >> >> >> > his > >> >> >> >> >> > parents. The child cannot even change its name unless it > >> >> >> >> >> > goes to > >> >> >> >> >> > court- even marriage only changes the last name. (I was > >> >> >> >> >> > named to match > >> >> >> >> >> > family monograms on linens, silver and as a bone tossed to > >> >> >> >> >> > my father's > >> >> >> >> >> > ego and my mother's determination to establish a stake in a > >> >> >> >> >> > failing > >> >> >> >> >> > marriage.) The brain is not mature until the mid-twenties. > > >> >> >> >> >> > We should discuss motive and its role in making choices. > >> >> >> >> >> > Often motive > >> >> >> >> >> > is not apparent until you are beyond the choice or older and > >> >> >> >> >> > in the > >> >> >> >> >> > ruminating stage. > > >> >> >> >> >> > Women developed manipulation to an art form. Power is another > >> >> >> >> >> > important element in choice. > > >> >> >> >> >> > It is human to try various adaptions on for size. I thought > >> >> >> >> >> > of a line > >> >> >> >> >> > the other day: I tried on sin but found it unbecoming. > > >> >> >> >> >> > Some conditions are beyond human choice and adaption- > >> >> >> >> >> > violent acts of > >> >> >> >> >> > Nature, war zones, political and social clamps, etc. > > >> >> >> >> >> > If the more capable individual has adapted to baser systems, > >> >> >> >> >> > where's > >> >> >> >> >> > the courage or intelligence? > > >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 26, 11:48 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> It is in the nature of an organism to adapt to his > >> >> >> >> >> >> environment , > >> >> >> >> >> >> whether it is conscious or unconscious. The more capable an > >> >> >> >> >> >> organism > >> >> >> >> >> >> the better its coping behaviour and adaptability , that > >> >> >> >> >> >> which you > >> >> >> >> >> >> cannot change you adapt to. > > >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:00 AM, rigsy03 > >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> > So is morality/religion a means/tool of adaptation? > > >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 26, 9:17 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It depends upon man's nature and the opportunities in > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> his environment > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> that result in successive environments. > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:36 AM, kenny > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > "and how shall man hope to see himself as nature made > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > him, across all > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > the changes which the succession of place and time > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > must have produced > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > in his original composition". rousseau > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 25, 9:32 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We have choice but it is limited by our motivational > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> forces. We go to > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> a restaurant and order food by choice but according > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> to our taste buds > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> or health habits. Our freedom is bound by many > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> factors , some of which > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> we are not even aware of. The choice is ours and the > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> responsibility is > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ours but the motivating force behind the curtain is > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> determined by our > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> nature. On being confronted by a bully the meek among > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> us act with > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> timidity but the bold among us act with aggression. > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Our nature is > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> determined to a large extent by factors beyond our > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> control , we are > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> not responsible for our genes or the environment in > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> which we were born > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and yet they are responsible for our nature. The > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> desire to change > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ourselves , to improve ourselves comes from within us > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and is innate in > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> us , what we see as our freedom has causative factors > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> of which we are > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> not aware. > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 7:21 PM, pol.science kid > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I was thinking...it is our ability to make a choice > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > that makes us > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > moral beings....but is it necessary that animals > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > dont make a > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > choice...and do we really make an active > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > choice....and i would like > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > someone to talk about responsibility in the same > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > sense...- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - > > >> >> >> >> - > > ... > > read more »- Hide quoted text - > > - Show quoted text -
