A madman is dancing around the streets , his actions and thoughts are bizarre but whatever he is doing it is with free will. He is given medicines over a period of time and is not interfered with in any other manner. Over a period of time his actions and thoughts become normal , where is your free will , Lee? Actions and thoughts are made rational with medicines , in other words thoughts and actions can be controlled with physical or chemical administrations. In other words the will is not free but controlled from within and outside the organism , and from within in the sense that your very nature comes into play.
On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 10:43 PM, [email protected] <[email protected]> wrote: > Again my friend I agree, man sure does interpret scripturein a biased > manner. > > Again I don't argue against determinisim, but I question the level of > effect it has on rational, thinking beings, and I alo simply do not > belive choice within a limitted scope is not free. > > As I say I may wish to fly unadied by machines, but cannot due to the > confineds of my body, however I can still fly if that is my wish. My > choice may be restricted, but it is still ther for me to make. > > Choice. > > We make many choices everyday. Either do A or do not do A. The fact > that my choice is limited to one of these does not negate the fact > that I can still make that choice. > > Undoubedlty you may question, what in my past has determined what my > choice may be, unknownst to me, in my subcociouse. I say such a > belife is grounded in the very act of beliefe itself. > > Unless one can point to all that you say may determine choice then to > take the stance of determinism based upon this is at best an educated > guess, and at worst unsubstanciated belife. > > On Mar 3, 4:52 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> Man interprets the Scriptures in a biased manner , but if you look >> closely and take into account diverse verses you will find that the >> meaning is quite clear. Science is so advanced now that the laws of >> biology , genetics , psychology etc. give credence to the faith in >> determinism. You say there are conditions, but I see conditions within >> conditions. >> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 10:04 PM, [email protected] >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> > Quite poetic really RP. >> >> > I can't help but wonder how many ways this passage could be >> > interpreted though. That addition of the word heart makes me think >> > automaticly that the power of love can move anything. >> >> > Does this really suggest then God literaly controls us, or indeed our >> > movments, or could it perhaps suggest that Gods love moves the hearts >> > of man? >> >> > On Mar 3, 3:35 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> I am quoting a verse from the last chapter of the Bhagvadagita :- >> >> The Lord abides in the hearts of all beings , Oh Arjuna , causing them >> >> to move around by His power as if they were mounted on a machine. >> >> >> You will find similar verses in other Scriptures as well if you take >> >> the trouble to look. >> >> >> On Thu, Mar 3, 2011 at 7:16 PM, [email protected] >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > I think you are correct in some aspects RP. I would call what you >> >> > call bondage by a differant name. >> >> >> > I would name it condition. If your argument is that ther is no >> >> > unfettered freedom, that all is dependant on other things then you'll >> >> > get no argument from me. >> >> >> > Everything is conditional. I might like to fly unaided by mechanics, >> >> > but I simply cannot. This is a condition of my body, and my species. >> >> >> > Reason, human reason like much else about us is not static, that is to >> >> > say what resonable conclusions I may have made ten years ago, can be >> >> > subject to change. >> >> >> > Of course there are also conditions that apply to our reasoning, I may >> >> > never have a larger than avarage IQ, for example. >> >> >> > On Mar 2, 2:04 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> Lee why do you choose to believe in free will whereas I in bondage? It >> >> >> is because our beliefs and reasoning is different. Free will appears >> >> >> logical to you whereas to me it does not. Our reasoning is at >> >> >> loggerheads because our reasoning faculties and experience is >> >> >> different. We are bound by our reason , and this itself is bondage. >> >> >> Where is your free choice then? >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 6:56 PM, [email protected] >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> > Sorry RP I can't get with that at all, as you well know by now. >> >> >> >> > A persons nature is not static but moves as the person does. It is >> >> >> > possible to shake of the products of an 'early envirmonent', hence we >> >> >> > have so many atheists from religious households. >> >> >> >> > Do we all act within the scope of Gods will? >> >> >> >> > If this is true then no religous text would contain no words of >> >> >> > punishment for denying Gods will. They do though, it is clear then >> >> >> > that we have a choice to obey or not the will of God. There is a >> >> >> > prayer prevalent in more than one of the worlds religions that runs >> >> >> > basicly 'not my will ohh lord but yours' >> >> >> >> > What is the meaning of this? >> >> >> >> > Does it admit that there is one will and that is Gods, or does it beg >> >> >> > God grant me the strenght to obey not my will but yours? >> >> >> >> > I would obviously plump for the latter. >> >> >> >> > What is religious dogma if not a list of things designed to get one >> >> >> > to >> >> >> > God? Why the need for it, if all was Gods will anyway? >> >> >> >> > On Mar 1, 1:14 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> When a person thinks or acts he does so as if he were the master of >> >> >> >> his will but in fact unknown to him various forces within himself >> >> >> >> are >> >> >> >> taking him along as a current takes along a boat in turbulent >> >> >> >> waters. >> >> >> >> Most of the times a man's motives are hidden to him , he acts >> >> >> >> ostensibly for some reasons whereas the real motives lie in his >> >> >> >> unconscious. This has been dealt in various books of psychology. If >> >> >> >> you act according to your nature that nature was given to you by the >> >> >> >> Almighty in the form of your genes and early environment , and so >> >> >> >> whatever you do it is not your but God's doing. >> >> >> >> >> On Tue, Mar 1, 2011 at 5:39 PM, [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> > Is that true though? Or is it better expresed thusly: >> >> >> >> >> > My nature has been created by both internal and external >> >> >> >> > influences >> >> >> >> > yet is still my nature, and thus is me? >> >> >> >> >> > What is the differance between a persons nature and a person? Is >> >> >> >> > not >> >> >> >> > the nature of the man, the man himself? >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 28, 5:31 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> My nature consists of the forces within me which bind my freedom >> >> >> >> >> of >> >> >> >> >> will. In that context it can be said that your nature is >> >> >> >> >> separate from >> >> >> >> >> you. >> >> >> >> >> >> On Mon, Feb 28, 2011 at 10:32 PM, [email protected] >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> > And you and your nature is seperate? >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 27, 3:20 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Whether you adapt or you revolt , in either case it is not >> >> >> >> >> >> you but >> >> >> >> >> >> your nature which makes the choice. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 7:06 PM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> >> >> >> >> >> >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> > Adaption may be phoney/false in order to >> >> >> >> >> >> > survive/prosper/get along. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Afterall, a child is controlled in beliefs and behaviors by >> >> >> >> >> >> > his >> >> >> >> >> >> > parents. The child cannot even change its name unless it >> >> >> >> >> >> > goes to >> >> >> >> >> >> > court- even marriage only changes the last name. (I was >> >> >> >> >> >> > named to match >> >> >> >> >> >> > family monograms on linens, silver and as a bone tossed to >> >> >> >> >> >> > my father's >> >> >> >> >> >> > ego and my mother's determination to establish a stake in a >> >> >> >> >> >> > failing >> >> >> >> >> >> > marriage.) The brain is not mature until the mid-twenties. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > We should discuss motive and its role in making choices. >> >> >> >> >> >> > Often motive >> >> >> >> >> >> > is not apparent until you are beyond the choice or older >> >> >> >> >> >> > and in the >> >> >> >> >> >> > ruminating stage. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Women developed manipulation to an art form. Power is >> >> >> >> >> >> > another >> >> >> >> >> >> > important element in choice. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > It is human to try various adaptions on for size. I thought >> >> >> >> >> >> > of a line >> >> >> >> >> >> > the other day: I tried on sin but found it unbecoming. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Some conditions are beyond human choice and adaption- >> >> >> >> >> >> > violent acts of >> >> >> >> >> >> > Nature, war zones, political and social clamps, etc. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > If the more capable individual has adapted to baser >> >> >> >> >> >> > systems, where's >> >> >> >> >> >> > the courage or intelligence? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 26, 11:48 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It is in the nature of an organism to adapt to his >> >> >> >> >> >> >> environment , >> >> >> >> >> >> >> whether it is conscious or unconscious. The more capable >> >> >> >> >> >> >> an organism >> >> >> >> >> >> >> the better its coping behaviour and adaptability , that >> >> >> >> >> >> >> which you >> >> >> >> >> >> >> cannot change you adapt to. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 11:00 AM, rigsy03 >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > So is morality/religion a means/tool of adaptation? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 26, 9:17 pm, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> It depends upon man's nature and the opportunities in >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> his environment >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> that result in successive environments. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Sun, Feb 27, 2011 at 6:36 AM, kenny >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > "and how shall man hope to see himself as nature made >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > him, across all >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > the changes which the succession of place and time >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > must have produced >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > in his original composition". rousseau >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > On Feb 25, 9:32 am, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> We have choice but it is limited by our motivational >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> forces. We go to >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> a restaurant and order food by choice but according >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> to our taste buds >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> or health habits. Our freedom is bound by many >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> factors , some of which >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> we are not even aware of. The choice is ours and the >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> responsibility is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ours but the motivating force behind the curtain is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> determined by our >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> nature. On being confronted by a bully the meek >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> among us act with >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> timidity but the bold among us act with aggression. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> Our nature is >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> determined to a large extent by factors beyond our >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> control , we are >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> not responsible for our genes or the environment in >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> which we were born >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> and yet they are responsible for our nature. The >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> desire to change >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ourselves , to improve ourselves comes from within >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> us and is innate in >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> us , what we see as our freedom has causative >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> factors of which we are >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> not aware. >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Fri, Feb 25, 2011 at 7:21 PM, pol.science kid >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > I was thinking...it is our ability to make a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > choice that makes us >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > moral beings....but is it necessary that animals >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > dont make a >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > choice...and do we really make an active >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > choice....and i would like >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > someone to talk about responsibility in the same >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > sense...- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> >> >> - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text - >> >> >> >> >> >> - >> >> ... >> >> read more »- Hide quoted text - >> >> - Show quoted text -
