The general principles are examined here - http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/justice-distributive/
On 2 Nov, 16:07, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > This is from Wiki (which calls for a re-write less partisan): > The MONDRAGON Corporation is a corporation and federation of worker > cooperatives based in the Basque region of Spain. Founded in the town > of Mondragón in 1956, its origin is linked to the activity of a modest > technical college and a small workshop producing paraffin heaters. > Currently it is the seventh largest Spanish company in terms of asset > turnover and the leading business group in the Basque Country. At the > end of 2011 it was providing employment for 83,869 people working in > 256 companies in four areas of activity: Finance, Industry, Retail and > Knowledge. The MONDRAGON Co-operatives operate in accordance with a > business model based on People and the Sovereignty of Labour, which > has made it possible to develop highly participative companies rooted > in solidarity, with a strong social dimension but without neglecting > business excellence. The Co-operatives are owned by their worker- > members and power is based on the principle of one person, one vote. > [2] > > On 2 Nov, 16:02, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Aristotle talked about labour value and Plato thought no one should > > earn more than 6 times the basic. David Graeber's 'Debt' is a long, > > historical sweep. 'Stone Age Economics' would throw a lot of ideas up > > (modern economics being based on a false thought experiment by Smith > > etc). The social epidemiologist Wilkinson wrote an interesting book > > on health and social inequality. The literature is vast rigs - but it > > always is. > > I'd say modern economics does separate value/worth from remuneration - > > JK Galbraith wrote a lot on the financial system as merely a means to > > transferring wealth to the rich. The question to me is more on the > > lines of 'can we cut off the parasite' without losing the motivation > > to work? This would be a return to labour value. The Basque > > cooperative (Mondragon) runs without vast profit-taking. I've been, > > liked the ethos - but admit it's not without problems. > > > On 2 Nov, 00:28, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > Have you or Archytas some examples from human history when there were > > > not class and income disparity? Dicken's Victorian England? Robber > > > barons and the Gilded Age? The Soviet Union? Today's China? Most of > > > the planet? I don't believe there is a work requirement for welfare, > > > is there? Are there valid reasons for the difference in earnings > > > between mental and physical work? What are they? Can you really > > > separate value/worth from remuneration- mostly financial- although I > > > suppose the military and saints get by with medals and sainthood plus > > > a pension or Heaven. The female issues are another subject. > > > > On Nov 1, 2:34 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > Well Neil I have been doing lot of thinking about the banking > > > > problems,, I find what is not making sense is kind of a strange > > > > problem > > > > > Personally I have a hard time of thinking of people as evil or bad.. > > > > and i am not a good writer and something you said got me off in > > > > attempting to write a piece on how to worship and pay homage to the > > > > golden calf... well what dawned on me is that what the real problem > > > > is the lose of simple morality,,, people like banksters have lost > > > > simple morality.. I do not think that when they maximize their > > > > profits by not paying interests that is really due to clients and > > > > customers so they can get excessive wages and bonuses > > > > > I have heard the excuse that there is nothing they can do about it,, > > > > realizing the failure to pay interest that is due in reality is > > > > stealing.. justifing it does not make it okay to steal. > > > > Allan > > > > > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:24 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > > That's one of the crucial issues Allan - the original free-table was > > > > > based in a slave economy. Wages involved in providing me with a > > > > > decent coffee and snack I want are lousy - those involved in ripping > > > > > fees for financial services I'd be happier were a government utility > > > > > are generally better. What might the motivation to work be stripped > > > > > of the necessity of income? Some doubt there would be any. > > > > > > I'm about to do a short course so I can assess management apprentices > > > > > - something I've done for 20 years (I even wrote and enacted some of > > > > > the pilots). The only motivation is to be able to be a fee-taker - > > > > > with some thought my students at least aren't being stuck with $70K > > > > > debt. I wouldn't have taken well to the Villa Borghese being full of > > > > > lager louts last weekend. It's hard to imagine what society would be > > > > > without money-differentiation. Neighbours are beggared throughout the > > > > > animal kingdom in order that a few get art and even good nosh with > > > > > friends. > > > > > > Stephen Pinker has a book out on human pacification at the moment - > > > > > suggesting our institutions get some things right. I tend to agree - > > > > > but I'm also sure we are screwing up the land of plenty. > > > > > > On 1 Nov, 07:09, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> that is very true but where would they get cheap to essentially slave > > > > >> labor,, they need to put the gold in their pockets so they can pay > > > > >> homage to their god the golden calf.. > > > > >> Allan > > > > > >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:35 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> > The good dream side of this is what you say Lee. But the thought > > > > >> > experiment is a challenge to current ideology. I've noticed over > > > > >> > the > > > > >> > years that the most passionate defenders of the protestant work > > > > >> > ethic > > > > >> > don't do jobs involving hard work for low pay. > > > > > >> > On Oct 26, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: > > > > >> >> Ahhhh robot heaven is my ideal. > > > > > >> >> It gets rid of money as nobody would need to barter goods or > > > > >> >> services > > > > >> >> to survive, it would mean that humans can spend more time growing > > > > >> >> and > > > > >> >> learning, and can you imagine the various works of art, in all > > > > >> >> media? > > > > > >> >> Now of course the thing to consider is the transitional period, > > > > >> >> and I guess > > > > >> >> this is Archy's main thrust. Our history shows us that > > > > >> >> such transitional periods are fraught with violence and upheaval, > > > > >> >> I suspect > > > > >> >> a move to robotic heaven would be little different. > > > > > >> >> So we have robots a plenty and much work going on in robotics. I > > > > >> >> suspect > > > > >> >> the next thing we'll have to sort is robots that make and repair > > > > >> >> robots. > > > > > >> >> Should we concentrate then on food and water production and > > > > >> >> distribution? > > > > >> >> Why yes I think we should. > > > > > >> >> Get that done and then nobody has to pay for food or water, ahhh > > > > >> >> now we are > > > > >> >> getting somewhere. A world full of thinkers and artists! > > > > > >> >> Energy next? > > > > > >> >> On Wednesday, 19 September 2012 22:56:36 UTC+1, archytas wrote: > > > > > >> >> > Thought experiments are devices of the imagination used to > > > > >> >> > investigate > > > > >> >> > the nature of things. Thought experimenting often takes place > > > > >> >> > when the > > > > >> >> > method of variation is employed in entertaining imaginative > > > > >> >> > suppositions. They are used for diverse reasons in a variety of > > > > >> >> > areas, > > > > >> >> > including economics, history, mathematics, philosophy, and > > > > >> >> > physics. > > > > >> >> > Most often thought experiments are communicated in narrative > > > > >> >> > form, > > > > >> >> > sometimes through media like a diagram. Thought experiments > > > > >> >> > should be > > > > >> >> > distinguished from thinking about experiments, from merely > > > > >> >> > imagining > > > > >> >> > any experiments to be conducted outside the imagination, and > > > > >> >> > from > > > > >> >> > psychological experiments with thoughts. They should also be > > > > >> >> > distinguished from counterfactual reasoning in general, as they > > > > >> >> > seem > > > > >> >> > to require an experimental element. > > > > >> >> >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/ > > > > > >> >> > One I like is the notion of robot heaven. It's easy enough to > > > > >> >> > imagine > > > > >> >> > a time when machines grow our food, build our shelter and do our > > > > >> >> > work. The interesting stuff comes in thinking what this would > > > > >> >> > mean > > > > >> >> > for wealth distribution and the nature of society. What work > > > > >> >> > would be > > > > >> >> > left to do? One can also wonder what place any of our work > > > > >> >> > ethics > > > > >> >> > would have in such a society. There may be some deconstructive > > > > >> >> > effect > > > > >> >> > on just what current work ideologies are in place for. > > > > > >> >> > One of the great improvements technology brought to my life is > > > > >> >> > more or > > > > >> >> > less never having to go into a bank. The only real innovations > > > > >> >> > in > > > > >> >> > banking are the ATM and electronic banking. This kind of > > > > >> >> > technology > > > > >> >> > and similar in agriculture and industry fundamentally reduce the > > > > >> >> > amount of human effort to grow and make what we need. We are in > > > > >> >> > partial state of robot heaven. > > > > > >> >> > Our ideologies are not up to speed. Real unemployment is > > > > >> >> > massive and > > > > >> >> > education does little to provide job skills. We are sold > > > > >> >> > life-styles > > > > >> >> > and products by insane advertising. Job creation seems to be in > > > > >> >> > perverse areas like financial services or bringing back > > > > >> >> > attended gas- > > > > >> >> > pumps. With more efficient production we should be able to > > > > >> >> > afford a > > > > >> >> > bigger social sector and I can't for the life of me understand > > > > >> >> > why we > > > > >> >> > allow competition through crap wages and conditions. > > > > > >> >> > A great deal of what we pay for could be available more or less > > > > >> >> > free. > > > > >> >> > Educational content and utility banking are examples - > > ... > > read more » --
