The cut-off-the-parasite image is misleading. It might be interpreted as if it was something non-me. I prefer the cancer image and the question how its feeding can be stopped.
On Fri, Nov 2, 2012 at 5:02 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Aristotle talked about labour value and Plato thought no one should > earn more than 6 times the basic. David Graeber's 'Debt' is a long, > historical sweep. 'Stone Age Economics' would throw a lot of ideas up > (modern economics being based on a false thought experiment by Smith > etc). The social epidemiologist Wilkinson wrote an interesting book > on health and social inequality. The literature is vast rigs - but it > always is. > I'd say modern economics does separate value/worth from remuneration - > JK Galbraith wrote a lot on the financial system as merely a means to > transferring wealth to the rich. The question to me is more on the > lines of 'can we cut off the parasite' without losing the motivation > to work? This would be a return to labour value. The Basque > cooperative (Mondragon) runs without vast profit-taking. I've been, > liked the ethos - but admit it's not without problems. > > On 2 Nov, 00:28, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote: >> Have you or Archytas some examples from human history when there were >> not class and income disparity? Dicken's Victorian England? Robber >> barons and the Gilded Age? The Soviet Union? Today's China? Most of >> the planet? I don't believe there is a work requirement for welfare, >> is there? Are there valid reasons for the difference in earnings >> between mental and physical work? What are they? Can you really >> separate value/worth from remuneration- mostly financial- although I >> suppose the military and saints get by with medals and sainthood plus >> a pension or Heaven. The female issues are another subject. >> >> On Nov 1, 2:34 pm, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > Well Neil I have been doing lot of thinking about the banking >> > problems,, I find what is not making sense is kind of a strange >> > problem >> >> > Personally I have a hard time of thinking of people as evil or bad.. >> > and i am not a good writer and something you said got me off in >> > attempting to write a piece on how to worship and pay homage to the >> > golden calf... well what dawned on me is that what the real problem >> > is the lose of simple morality,,, people like banksters have lost >> > simple morality.. I do not think that when they maximize their >> > profits by not paying interests that is really due to clients and >> > customers so they can get excessive wages and bonuses >> >> > I have heard the excuse that there is nothing they can do about it,, >> > realizing the failure to pay interest that is due in reality is >> > stealing.. justifing it does not make it okay to steal. >> > Allan >> >> > On Thu, Nov 1, 2012 at 1:24 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > That's one of the crucial issues Allan - the original free-table was >> > > based in a slave economy. Wages involved in providing me with a >> > > decent coffee and snack I want are lousy - those involved in ripping >> > > fees for financial services I'd be happier were a government utility >> > > are generally better. What might the motivation to work be stripped >> > > of the necessity of income? Some doubt there would be any. >> >> > > I'm about to do a short course so I can assess management apprentices >> > > - something I've done for 20 years (I even wrote and enacted some of >> > > the pilots). The only motivation is to be able to be a fee-taker - >> > > with some thought my students at least aren't being stuck with $70K >> > > debt. I wouldn't have taken well to the Villa Borghese being full of >> > > lager louts last weekend. It's hard to imagine what society would be >> > > without money-differentiation. Neighbours are beggared throughout the >> > > animal kingdom in order that a few get art and even good nosh with >> > > friends. >> >> > > Stephen Pinker has a book out on human pacification at the moment - >> > > suggesting our institutions get some things right. I tend to agree - >> > > but I'm also sure we are screwing up the land of plenty. >> >> > > On 1 Nov, 07:09, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> that is very true but where would they get cheap to essentially slave >> > >> labor,, they need to put the gold in their pockets so they can pay >> > >> homage to their god the golden calf.. >> > >> Allan >> >> > >> On Wed, Oct 31, 2012 at 11:35 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> > The good dream side of this is what you say Lee. But the thought >> > >> > experiment is a challenge to current ideology. I've noticed over the >> > >> > years that the most passionate defenders of the protestant work ethic >> > >> > don't do jobs involving hard work for low pay. >> >> > >> > On Oct 26, 2:19 pm, Lee Douglas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > >> >> Ahhhh robot heaven is my ideal. >> >> > >> >> It gets rid of money as nobody would need to barter goods or services >> > >> >> to survive, it would mean that humans can spend more time growing and >> > >> >> learning, and can you imagine the various works of art, in all media? >> >> > >> >> Now of course the thing to consider is the transitional period, and >> > >> >> I guess >> > >> >> this is Archy's main thrust. Our history shows us that >> > >> >> such transitional periods are fraught with violence and upheaval, I >> > >> >> suspect >> > >> >> a move to robotic heaven would be little different. >> >> > >> >> So we have robots a plenty and much work going on in robotics. I >> > >> >> suspect >> > >> >> the next thing we'll have to sort is robots that make and repair >> > >> >> robots. >> >> > >> >> Should we concentrate then on food and water production and >> > >> >> distribution? >> > >> >> Why yes I think we should. >> >> > >> >> Get that done and then nobody has to pay for food or water, ahhh now >> > >> >> we are >> > >> >> getting somewhere. A world full of thinkers and artists! >> >> > >> >> Energy next? >> >> > >> >> On Wednesday, 19 September 2012 22:56:36 UTC+1, archytas wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Thought experiments are devices of the imagination used to >> > >> >> > investigate >> > >> >> > the nature of things. Thought experimenting often takes place when >> > >> >> > the >> > >> >> > method of variation is employed in entertaining imaginative >> > >> >> > suppositions. They are used for diverse reasons in a variety of >> > >> >> > areas, >> > >> >> > including economics, history, mathematics, philosophy, and physics. >> > >> >> > Most often thought experiments are communicated in narrative form, >> > >> >> > sometimes through media like a diagram. Thought experiments should >> > >> >> > be >> > >> >> > distinguished from thinking about experiments, from merely >> > >> >> > imagining >> > >> >> > any experiments to be conducted outside the imagination, and from >> > >> >> > psychological experiments with thoughts. They should also be >> > >> >> > distinguished from counterfactual reasoning in general, as they >> > >> >> > seem >> > >> >> > to require an experimental element. >> > >> >> >http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/thought-experiment/ >> >> > >> >> > One I like is the notion of robot heaven. It's easy enough to >> > >> >> > imagine >> > >> >> > a time when machines grow our food, build our shelter and do our >> > >> >> > work. The interesting stuff comes in thinking what this would mean >> > >> >> > for wealth distribution and the nature of society. What work >> > >> >> > would be >> > >> >> > left to do? One can also wonder what place any of our work ethics >> > >> >> > would have in such a society. There may be some deconstructive >> > >> >> > effect >> > >> >> > on just what current work ideologies are in place for. >> >> > >> >> > One of the great improvements technology brought to my life is >> > >> >> > more or >> > >> >> > less never having to go into a bank. The only real innovations in >> > >> >> > banking are the ATM and electronic banking. This kind of >> > >> >> > technology >> > >> >> > and similar in agriculture and industry fundamentally reduce the >> > >> >> > amount of human effort to grow and make what we need. We are in >> > >> >> > partial state of robot heaven. >> >> > >> >> > Our ideologies are not up to speed. Real unemployment is massive >> > >> >> > and >> > >> >> > education does little to provide job skills. We are sold >> > >> >> > life-styles >> > >> >> > and products by insane advertising. Job creation seems to be in >> > >> >> > perverse areas like financial services or bringing back attended >> > >> >> > gas- >> > >> >> > pumps. With more efficient production we should be able to afford >> > >> >> > a >> > >> >> > bigger social sector and I can't for the life of me understand why >> > >> >> > we >> > >> >> > allow competition through crap wages and conditions. >> >> > >> >> > A great deal of what we pay for could be available more or less >> > >> >> > free. >> > >> >> > Educational content and utility banking are examples - these are >> > >> >> > areas >> > >> >> > that could be ratinalised like agriculture and manufacturing. >> > >> >> > Millions of jobs would go. We should be asking why jobs are so >> > >> >> > central to out thinking on wealth distribution and how we might >> > >> >> > encourage work without the rat race. >> >> > >> > -- >> >> > >> -- >> > >> ( >> > >> ) >> > >> |_D Allan >> >> > >> Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living. >> >> > >> I am a Natural Airgunner - >> >> > >> Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly. >> >> > > -- >> >> > -- >> > ( >> > ) >> > |_D Allan >> >> > Life is for moral, ethical and truthful living. >> >> > I am a Natural Airgunner - >> >> > Full of Hot Air & Ready To Expel It Quickly.- Hide quoted text - >> >> > - Show quoted text - > > -- > > > --
