You seem to see morality as a group thing rather than an individual
struggle between good and evil- which is a religious/spiritual matter.
As for individualism, it is a necessary tension against "the roar of
the crowd". There are too many examples to list.

On Nov 12, 9:49 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> Even one person one vote isn't it on its own.  Majorities are
> manipulable and often wrong.  If you look at an issue like abortion -
> which I think should be available and also avoided by better sexual
> practice - there might be a majority against for all sorts of
> superstitious reasons.  The US relies on Roe v Wade rather than
> statute.  For all the romanticism of Irish republicanism, they leave a
> young, raped girl to 'her fate'.  I believe there comes a time when we
> should have help to slip from the mortal coil but one can immediately
> see problems.  Molly talks of embracing pardoxes - but much of the
> difficulty concerns cultural ideologies based in the manipulation of
> ignorance.  Any half-wit should be able to grasp that the treatment of
> wages as a cost to be hammered down is inconsistent with a developed
> economy and genuinely available opportunity for most.  Yet our
> politics treats the dominant ideology of a race to the bottom on wages
> as as taken as read as any Soviet claptrap.  Worker unions are to be
> detested, yet managers, owners and professionals are more unionised
> than any set of mine workers in history.
>
> Science more or less accepts we are good and evil and that the unit
> that promotes good behaviour is the social.  Virtue ethics arise in
> writing within an unchallenged slave economy - I don't want to be
> 'pure' and live off the backs of others (though inevitably as I grow
> creaky I do).  I'm sick of phrases like 'flexible employment' that
> mean a return of 'you, you and not you' casual labour and managerial
> abuse in a unitary framework of the employment relationship.
> Disgusted would be a more accurate term - much morality comes with
> that feeling (scientifically).
>
> The story of what is happening in America and the imposition of
> 'individualist' ideology (a bad joke when one looks at the lack of it
> in American Football) has been long told.  When are we individual and
> when are we selfish prats?  You look very individual when you step the
> big forward, stiff the sweeper, dummy the fullback and dive over the
> line.  Try doing that without the guy who gave the precision pass, the
> guys running interference and all the attrition that knackered the big
> forward giving you the edge.
>
> My grandson has just had a small knee operation free at point of
> delivery.  The hospital had a room with Xbox (all donated).  We get
> some stuff right.  Must go to collect him.
>
> On 12 Nov, 09:20, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote:
>
>
>
> > I think it is it should be one person one vote,,  and the corporate
> > wallet closed completely  and with a maximum amount that can be
> > donated (nation wide ) with no exception,,
>
> > effectively the excessively rich and companies and the companies..
> > The super pacs need to be forced to revel all donors and the amount
> > they donated.. and that is a minimum  these organizations should be
> > totally removed.  the Pacs as a republican invention and they need to
> > be brought into control.
>
> > the US has created a political money quagmire..
> > Allan
>
> > On Mon, Nov 12, 2012 at 4:48 AM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > > It's back to humane values and sensible choices, perhaps. We don't
> > > have to buy into the cultural or commercial hoopla. I will think more
> > > about this.
>
> > > On Nov 11, 2:45 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> You are right rigsy - but we have to get somewhere beyond.  What is it
> > >> in our arguments, sentiments and the rest that hold us back?  And may
> > >> be very wrong?
>
> > >> Allan is right we could vote better with our wallets.  We could, for
> > >> instance, all bank with mutuals and have more local economies
> > >> (Andrew).  Problems are as Andrew says when the wallet is empty and
> > >> also that we already have 'one dollar one vote'.
>
> > >> I doubt the academic-legal-commercial argument as argument at all.  We
> > >> have a paedophile scandal in the UK - but even the media reporting it
> > >> has forgotten it reported such a generation ago (the key documentaries
> > >> were called 'Cathy Come Home'.and 'Johnny Go Home') and misses the
> > >> point that they key point is what evidence we can believe when false
> > >> accusations are so easy to make and make life very difficult for real
> > >> victims.  Our public inquiry systems are proving increasingly
> > >> untrustworthy.  When one teaches critical reasoning it quickly becomes
> > >> clear most people are no good at it.  I'm quite sure our mainstream
> > >> media has almost no clue and that many lawyers, judges and politicians
> > >> would fail standard tests.  But surely the route here cannot be to
> > >> elite groups of philosopher kings - but should be towards properly
> > >> available facts - leaving us with problems about who controls that
> > >> production.  'The rich', whoever they are, already do this.
>
> > >> On 11 Nov, 11:33, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >> > Matriarchies are what started the problems and from history they tend
> > >> > to love war..
> > >> > they are not a solution..
> > >> > Allan
>
> > >> > On Sun, Nov 11, 2012 at 10:49 AM, rigsy03 <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > > I think that matriarchies are back in style- in all races and 
> > >> > > nations-
> > >> > > and think it will be just as suffocating as the patriarchy.
>
> > >> > > On Nov 11, 1:39 am, andrew vecsey <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > >> Voting with your wallet could be an effective way to change things 
> > >> > >> and put
> > >> > >> the wealthy exploiters out of business. Buying cheap products is 
> > >> > >> more
> > >> > >> expensive in the long term  anyways. Buying food from local markets 
> > >> > >> is also
> > >> > >> healthier. As long as we all play the game, the game will keep 
> > >> > >> playing
> > >> > >> until every business becomes a monopoly and globalization will take 
> > >> > >> over
> > >> > >> our wallets. Once our wallets are gone, we are really screwed and 
> > >> > >> will have
> > >> > >> no other choice than to play robin hood. So much for free markets.
>
> > >> > >> On Sunday, November 11, 2012 12:41:52 AM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
>
> > >> > >> > We lack simple explanation that isn't  crass Allan.  I have little
> > >> > >> > doubt the rich have stolen the wealth they have and it should be 
> > >> > >> > taken
> > >> > >> > from them - but how do we do this without it ending up with big
> > >> > >> > government that doesn't work any better?  I think we are tranced 
> > >> > >> > by a
> > >> > >> > work ethic that really makes no sense.  We need facts on just how 
> > >> > >> > much
> > >> > >> > work needs to be done and how we might organise that.  Simples!  
> > >> > >> > Yet
> > >> > >> > no answer because we don't understand the 'trancing'.
>
> > >> > >> > On 10 Nov, 07:15, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > >> > > From what I see is the answer lies in manufacturing. And crazy 
> > >> > >> > > things
> > >> > >> > like
> > >> > >> > > 50% less sales tax on products that are produced in the country 
> > >> > >> > > origin,
> > >> > >> > > that includes good thru all industrial products.
>
> > >> > >> > > Better tax collection on all international corporations and 
> > >> > >> > > stock or
> > >> > >> > money
> > >> > >> > > sent out of the country.
>
> > >> > >> > > In the US all corporation papers say they agree to abide by all 
> > >> > >> > > the laws
> > >> > >> > > and if they don't they lose all corporate  rights and 
> > >> > >> > > privileges. This
> > >> > >> > > needs to be enforced and you will see major changes in 
> > >> > >> > > business. You
> > >> > >> > have
> > >> > >> > > to remember tax evasion is against the law.
> > >> > >> > > Allan
>
> > >> > >> > > Air gunner full of hot air ready to release it quickly
> > >> > >> > > On Nov 10, 2012 2:04 AM, "archytas" <[email protected]> wrote:
>
> > >> > >> > > > The weird thing is that we are being told all sorts of stuff 
> > >> > >> > > > can't be
> > >> > >> > > > 'afforded' - yet productivity is up by factors of ten since 
> > >> > >> > > > we did
> > >> > >> > > > decent things like national health services - we should be 
> > >> > >> > > > able to
> > >> > >> > > > afford loads more.  In the UK we were told the answer was US
> > >> > >> > > > management, then Japanese - German stuff had too much 
> > >> > >> > > > industrial
> > >> > >> > > > democracy for our business ethos.  Even the IMF has realised 
> > >> > >> > > > austerity
> > >> > >> > > > is a crock.  We're in the grips of something else.  Debt is 
> > >> > >> > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > obvious answer -but we have to address our attitudes towards 
> > >> > >> > > > it.  Its
> > >> > >> > > > owned by robber barons and all link between work and reward 
> > >> > >> > > > has really
> > >> > >> > > > gone.
>
> > >> > >> > > > On 9 Nov, 21:59, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > I totally agree with you management is based on rot..but 
> > >> > >> > > > > from what I
> > >> > >> > > > > have been reading it is the same problem from eons ago,,  
> > >> > >> > > > > unchanged
> > >> > >> > > > > what does it take to get management that is interested in 
> > >> > >> > > > > the
> > >> > >> > > > > betterment of society ..  the ideas sit with in beliefs  
> > >> > >> > > > > which puts
> > >> > >> > > > > part of the burdens on religions ,, then the problems comes 
> > >> > >> > > > > how does
> > >> > >> > > > > one get beliefs to work for the betterment of mankind in 
> > >> > >> > > > > this world.
> > >> > >> > > > > Allan
>
> > >> > >> > > > > On Fri, Nov 9, 2012 at 9:45 PM, archytas 
> > >> > >> > > > > <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > > Get your head back on Al - I know about the Japanese war 
> > >> > >> > > > > > crimes.
> > >> > >> >  The
> > >> > >> > > > > > book I was referring to was written by a Japanese clown.  
> > >> > >> > > > > > The
> > >> > >> > point is
> > >> > >> > > > > > that management miracles are based on rot..
>
> > >> > >> > > > > > On 9 Nov, 19:07, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote:
> > >> > >> > > > > >> Neil I had two uncles in ww II One in the European 
> > >> > >> > > > > >> theater the
> > >> > >> > other
> > >> > >> > > > > >> was in pacific theater and was captured even before the 
> > >> > >> > > > > >> war
> > >> > >> > started in
> > >> > >> > > > > >> my memory is right   he survived 2 death ship and four 
> > >> > >> > > > > >> death
> > >> > >> > marches
> > >> > >> > > > > >> that is talking five years of imprisonment into account  
> > >> > >> > > > > >> loss of
> > >> > >> > close
> > >> > >> > > > > >> to 70 kilos..  you need to get your facts straight as to
> > >> > >> > strategies of
>
> ...
>
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