Interesting thread. I agree with Rigs, as usual. I have no problem with democracy as long as the voters are sane and reasonably intelligent and self-reliant. Therefore I disagree with democracy. Long live the Republic! But seriously, if we had a global democracy all us advanced nations would suffer without a corresponding lift in poorer cultures advancement. People will vote themselves money/benefits/stuff now at the expense of future consequences. Kick that can. Observe last USA presidential election.
'Nuff said. dj On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:38 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > Coffee stains are the new physics - http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/7 > > Allan's opinion is similar to my own - but there's a big 'but' - and > this concerns how we could get something radically different to work. > The usual dismissal of what many of us agree on in terms of fairness > and decency is 'this is a dirty old world and we need to play by the > rules of the bad guys or be swamped by them - our bad guys can't be > hampered by rules their competitors don't face and so on'. On top of > this the whole history of modern imperialism is written in legend. > Unions become not defenders of worker conditions and pay but enemies > etc. > > On Jan 20, 3:57 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> The function of mayonnaise is to teach us about negative vacuum energy >> Gabby! What the banksters are doing is controlling a global wage/food/ >> energy arbitrage that should be in local hands (ours). The Pirates >> had/have something going - but even 'socialist' France has boots on >> the ground - even if we had political revolution how would we deal >> with the inevitable foreign policy junk when whoever represents us has >> the military and secret services in their ears suggesting the policies >> we want will lead to Islamic-Chinese empires that will come looking >> for us? >> >> On 20 Jan, 03:30, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> > If I say something like 'you have never heard a true word about >> > management development' I broadly know what I mean. Some ass might >> > point out this is an example of the liar's paradox (presumably if you >> > have never heard a true word on the subject that includes mine) - but >> > I could explain my shorthand. We might walk into the scrotty pub I >> > occasionally frequent and order 'vodka martinis, shaken not stirred' - >> > clearly a comment on the pub not an order. Stuff like this makes >> > programming machines difficult - though machines are getting smarter >> > these days. >> >> > If we wanted to argue Allan's case we could find a lot of academic >> > support (Bill Black is the most accessible) - from biology, >> > anthropology, economics, history and social theory. The 'voter >> > machine' is not programmed with this material - I struggle to think of >> > much film, television or literature based in the science I know and >> > our kids get to university full of myths (Crusader in the west, Jihad >> > in the middle east - etc.). The business books I'm supposed to teach >> > from all treat capital as neutral and demand to teach corporate fraud >> > is very limited - some students see it as a how to module. There are >> > questions abut how to get the voting machine to process the argument >> > and even make the argument available. >> >> > On Jan 19, 10:45 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > The only way I see an honest government is strictly control in >> > > influence of corporations and spin doctors with all of their dealings >> > > involving government being recorded both video and audio with these >> > > being open to public scrutiny,, not just special commissions,, Also >> > > corporation presidents with the board of directors need to serve >> > > prison sentences when their companies break the law,, once convicted >> > > no longer be able to act as advisers or hold the offices of >> > > corporations.. ending all corporations for lawyers so the can no >> > > longer hide.. >> > > the enforcement of corporate need to be brought into effect instead of >> > > letting them slide. >> > > nasty huh... >> > > Allan >> >> > > On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > > We call ourselves democracies - the classic was perhaps the DDR (East >> > > > Germany), famous for strange athletes, Stasi and the Trabant. But >> > > > shouldn't we expect the Doublespeak Allan? Most of us don't really >> > > > want to be involved in politics - it's a bit like running the coffee >> > > > fund in a school common room. Like Gabby I tend to vote Green - but >> > > > this is really about registering my protest that the main parties are >> > > > now scum. We could, as Andrew suggested, have a much less >> > > > representative politics and make more decisions ourselves. In the UK >> > > > we should already have decentralised from London and become much more >> > > > electronic in base. It must be very easy for 'foreign powers' to >> > > > infiltrate our main political parties and they are all stacked out >> > > > with highly suspicious suit horses. There has long been no one for me >> > > > to vote for. We need revolutionary ideas about the system and I don't >> > > > mean bombs, capes, dubious mustaches and a "temporary" dictatorship of >> > > > the proles. This is why I think radical change in our understanding >> > > > and then technology of argument might help. You astutely note we >> > > > don't have any real democracies - but were earlier clinging to the >> > > > notion of voting involving argument - I'm saying that ain't 'real' >> > > > either. >> >> > > > On 19 Jan, 07:52, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> I don't see how you can call any government a democracy .. the USA is >> > > >> a republic and I do not see how you can call any government when >> > > >> leadership keep palling around with the wealth chasing the golden >> > > >> calf. >> > > >> Allan >> >> > > >> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:21 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> > Computing has brought about changes in maths on grounds of speed in >> > > >> > calculation that humans can't achieve in lifetimes - patterns appear >> > > >> > in massive iterations we simply don't have time to do. I don't have >> > > >> > much problem with this if, say, it lets us devise flight plans to >> > > >> > Mars. They are increasingly used to have information first, perhaps >> > > >> > like someone using a telescope to spot which ship is coming home in >> > > >> > order to unload what stock of goods one has while prices are still >> > > >> > high before its goods are docked. I doubt the entire use of the >> > > >> > technology in economics. In some areas of science we are not sure >> > > >> > what the computers are telling us and they appear to be "thinking".I >> > > >> > have taught many people to drive spreadsheets and databases - though >> > > >> > few really learn to manipulate new questions into them or design >> > > >> > useful reporting from them. >> > > >> > Rigs hits one of the nails of democracy on the head and Andrew >> > > >> > drives >> > > >> > in another. Unlike Gabby I tend to view faith as a weakness. The >> > > >> > vinegar and oil approach is probably cast as incommensurability in >> > > >> > philosophy - though combined as salad dressing Andrew's meat is my >> > > >> > poison. I suspect much allegedly incommensurate is merely >> > > >> > incompatible due to definition. Chemists could no doubt produce a >> > > >> > solution with both oil and vinegar in it. Wiles' solution to >> > > >> > Fermat's >> > > >> > last theorem bridges modular and elliptic equations and Sneed and >> > > >> > Ludwig have used set theory to show compatibility between older and >> > > >> > modern physics (scientists mostly believed this anyway). >> >> > > >> > The question is whether there is something we can apply to the sad >> > > >> > state of democracy that keeps the egalitarianism better than our >> > > >> > very >> > > >> > peculiar voting systems. If we had an "argument machine" we might >> > > >> > be >> > > >> > able t get past Crusade/Jihad, Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant, >> > > >> > Hindi/ >> > > >> > Muslim and so on - and get into what is common exploitation on all >> > > >> > sides - the human aspects rigs points out - and to change to the >> > > >> > more >> > > >> > positive ones. I may even share (something like) Gabby's >> > > >> > 'frustration' with agnostics - though an explication of this n both >> > > >> > sides would be long. >> >> > > >> > This is tough territory - and very unlike the spiv Blair uttering >> > > >> > 'education, education, education' (something I first heard in East >> > > >> > Germany) and the ease with which we are gulled by such blandishments >> > > >> > with no thought of how we can actually create graduate jobs 50:50 >> > > >> > and >> > > >> > what such a society would be. We need to know more about what >> > > >> > buttons >> > > >> > the likes of Blair and adverts push. I suspect part of the answer >> > > >> > would be the creation of technology to support a level playing >> > > >> > field - >> > > >> > but as I write this I'm fairly sure we are being warmed up for war >> > > >> > (it's a bit like Jung's dream). >> >> > > >> > On Jan 18, 11:11 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> > > >> >> Vinegar and oil are prime reasons I don't order salad when out - >> > > >> >> hate >> > > >> >> them both! I agree entirely with Gabby on "political argument" and >> > > >> >> would say in addition academic argument can be as bad and the >> > > >> >> majority >> > > >> >> of it is. When asked most people say they vote on the economy - >> > > >> >> when >> > > >> >> further asked what the economy is they are clueless. One of us at >> > > >> >> least will need a steel claw to make a success of Al's lair and our >> > > >> >> 'freedom through world domination' scheme. >> >> > > >> >> On Jan 18, 3:46 pm, andrew vecsey <[email protected]> wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > Faith and reason, like vinegar and oil (my favorite salad >> > > >> >> > dressing) ,go >> > > >> >> > together and complement each other really well. Like the bible >> > > >> >> > teaches, the >> > > >> >> > knowledge of good and evil or technology is a double edged >> > > >> >> > sword. You can >> > > >> >> > not have one without the other. Like playing with matches, it is >> > > >> >> > not >> > > >> >> > recommended for children. As for teaching morals, I do not think >> > > >> >> > it can be >> > > >> >> > taught by teachers. Education and democracy if used morally can >> > > >> >> > and does >> > > >> >> > fill empty bellies.I agree with you Rigs about democracy. >> > > >> >> > Democracy as we >> > > >> >> > have it in all democratic countries (except Switzerland) lasts >> > > >> >> > only for a >> > > >> >> > day every 4 or 5 years when we elect representatives with >> > > >> >> > meaningless >> > > >> >> > promises to represent us. >> >> > > >> >> > On Friday, January 18, 2013 12:54:01 PM UTC+1, rigs wrote: >> >> > > >> >> > > Faith and Reason are like vinegar and oil. The Enlightenment >> > > >> >> > > has >> > > >> >> > > brought us hence- the new Dark Ages? Technology is not a >> > > >> >> > > solution >> > > >> >> > > because it can be corrupted. I have much in common with a >> > > >> >> > > Roman matron >> > > >> >> > > of the 4th C. as I watch/read of the new barbarians. My modern >> > > >> >> > > conveniences are simply mechanical slaves. It does little good >> > > >> >> > > to >> > > >> >> > > teach ethics/morals when other parts of our supposed united >> > > >> >> > > world are >> > > >> >> > > not in sync. Education/democracy will not fill an empty belly >> > > >> >> > > or >> > > >> >> > > replenish wasted croplands and raw materials. Throwing money at >> > > >> >> > > unstable countries will not rescue us or them >> >> ... >> >> read more ยป > > -- > > > --
