I don't agree with that now Don - though I once did. 'Grand democratic socialism' never appealed much to me and in reality the nearest to examples we have of it are in the West anyway. What I've lost is any faith in the financial system and the politics of the vote. I was in Bucharest in the late 80's with a Saul Bellow book describing an academic finding the same corruption there as in his home Chicago. Never liked Bellow much - but thought his description of people who had read the great literature wandering around in the freezing moral climate of the Soviet Block rang true for me - and what bothers me is I feel the same in our system. I've eaten well on the academic drivel Don and once believed it had some point beyond feeding those who utter it - move from science to economics and business (even from cop) has led me to disillusion with 'theorists'. Most of it is palpable drivel. I will probably shuffle off a dog-walking hermit.
Sorry to hear of the episode Allan - hope you recover as quickly as usual. Science is plodding along telling a different tale of what it is to be human. I take some solace in that and perhaps the ludicrous state in which RT (Russia Today) and Al Jazeera offer more accurate news than the BBC (though one detects propaganda as surely as listening to Radio Moscow in the 60's). The madness is we have no need to organise as we do. I doubt this will change. On Jan 21, 3:46 am, Don Johnson <[email protected]> wrote: > Interesting thread. I agree with Rigs, as usual. I have no problem > with democracy as long as the voters are sane and reasonably > intelligent and self-reliant. Therefore I disagree with democracy. > Long live the Republic! But seriously, if we had a global democracy > all us advanced nations would suffer without a corresponding lift in > poorer cultures advancement. People will vote themselves > money/benefits/stuff now at the expense of future consequences. Kick > that can. Observe last USA presidential election. > > 'Nuff said. > > dj > > > > > > > > On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 10:38 PM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > Coffee stains are the new physics -http://physics.aps.org/articles/v6/7 > > > Allan's opinion is similar to my own - but there's a big 'but' - and > > this concerns how we could get something radically different to work. > > The usual dismissal of what many of us agree on in terms of fairness > > and decency is 'this is a dirty old world and we need to play by the > > rules of the bad guys or be swamped by them - our bad guys can't be > > hampered by rules their competitors don't face and so on'. On top of > > this the whole history of modern imperialism is written in legend. > > Unions become not defenders of worker conditions and pay but enemies > > etc. > > > On Jan 20, 3:57 am, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> The function of mayonnaise is to teach us about negative vacuum energy > >> Gabby! What the banksters are doing is controlling a global wage/food/ > >> energy arbitrage that should be in local hands (ours). The Pirates > >> had/have something going - but even 'socialist' France has boots on > >> the ground - even if we had political revolution how would we deal > >> with the inevitable foreign policy junk when whoever represents us has > >> the military and secret services in their ears suggesting the policies > >> we want will lead to Islamic-Chinese empires that will come looking > >> for us? > > >> On 20 Jan, 03:30, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > If I say something like 'you have never heard a true word about > >> > management development' I broadly know what I mean. Some ass might > >> > point out this is an example of the liar's paradox (presumably if you > >> > have never heard a true word on the subject that includes mine) - but > >> > I could explain my shorthand. We might walk into the scrotty pub I > >> > occasionally frequent and order 'vodka martinis, shaken not stirred' - > >> > clearly a comment on the pub not an order. Stuff like this makes > >> > programming machines difficult - though machines are getting smarter > >> > these days. > > >> > If we wanted to argue Allan's case we could find a lot of academic > >> > support (Bill Black is the most accessible) - from biology, > >> > anthropology, economics, history and social theory. The 'voter > >> > machine' is not programmed with this material - I struggle to think of > >> > much film, television or literature based in the science I know and > >> > our kids get to university full of myths (Crusader in the west, Jihad > >> > in the middle east - etc.). The business books I'm supposed to teach > >> > from all treat capital as neutral and demand to teach corporate fraud > >> > is very limited - some students see it as a how to module. There are > >> > questions abut how to get the voting machine to process the argument > >> > and even make the argument available. > > >> > On Jan 19, 10:45 am, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > > >> > > The only way I see an honest government is strictly control in > >> > > influence of corporations and spin doctors with all of their dealings > >> > > involving government being recorded both video and audio with these > >> > > being open to public scrutiny,, not just special commissions,, Also > >> > > corporation presidents with the board of directors need to serve > >> > > prison sentences when their companies break the law,, once convicted > >> > > no longer be able to act as advisers or hold the offices of > >> > > corporations.. ending all corporations for lawyers so the can no > >> > > longer hide.. > >> > > the enforcement of corporate need to be brought into effect instead of > >> > > letting them slide. > >> > > nasty huh... > >> > > Allan > > >> > > On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 9:57 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > > We call ourselves democracies - the classic was perhaps the DDR (East > >> > > > Germany), famous for strange athletes, Stasi and the Trabant. But > >> > > > shouldn't we expect the Doublespeak Allan? Most of us don't really > >> > > > want to be involved in politics - it's a bit like running the coffee > >> > > > fund in a school common room. Like Gabby I tend to vote Green - but > >> > > > this is really about registering my protest that the main parties are > >> > > > now scum. We could, as Andrew suggested, have a much less > >> > > > representative politics and make more decisions ourselves. In the UK > >> > > > we should already have decentralised from London and become much more > >> > > > electronic in base. It must be very easy for 'foreign powers' to > >> > > > infiltrate our main political parties and they are all stacked out > >> > > > with highly suspicious suit horses. There has long been no one for > >> > > > me > >> > > > to vote for. We need revolutionary ideas about the system and I > >> > > > don't > >> > > > mean bombs, capes, dubious mustaches and a "temporary" dictatorship > >> > > > of > >> > > > the proles. This is why I think radical change in our understanding > >> > > > and then technology of argument might help. You astutely note we > >> > > > don't have any real democracies - but were earlier clinging to the > >> > > > notion of voting involving argument - I'm saying that ain't 'real' > >> > > > either. > > >> > > > On 19 Jan, 07:52, Allan H <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> I don't see how you can call any government a democracy .. the USA > >> > > >> is > >> > > >> a republic and I do not see how you can call any government when > >> > > >> leadership keep palling around with the wealth chasing the golden > >> > > >> calf. > >> > > >> Allan > > >> > > >> On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 1:21 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> > Computing has brought about changes in maths on grounds of speed > >> > > >> > in > >> > > >> > calculation that humans can't achieve in lifetimes - patterns > >> > > >> > appear > >> > > >> > in massive iterations we simply don't have time to do. I don't > >> > > >> > have > >> > > >> > much problem with this if, say, it lets us devise flight plans to > >> > > >> > Mars. They are increasingly used to have information first, > >> > > >> > perhaps > >> > > >> > like someone using a telescope to spot which ship is coming home > >> > > >> > in > >> > > >> > order to unload what stock of goods one has while prices are still > >> > > >> > high before its goods are docked. I doubt the entire use of the > >> > > >> > technology in economics. In some areas of science we are not sure > >> > > >> > what the computers are telling us and they appear to be > >> > > >> > "thinking".I > >> > > >> > have taught many people to drive spreadsheets and databases - > >> > > >> > though > >> > > >> > few really learn to manipulate new questions into them or design > >> > > >> > useful reporting from them. > >> > > >> > Rigs hits one of the nails of democracy on the head and Andrew > >> > > >> > drives > >> > > >> > in another. Unlike Gabby I tend to view faith as a weakness. The > >> > > >> > vinegar and oil approach is probably cast as incommensurability in > >> > > >> > philosophy - though combined as salad dressing Andrew's meat is my > >> > > >> > poison. I suspect much allegedly incommensurate is merely > >> > > >> > incompatible due to definition. Chemists could no doubt produce a > >> > > >> > solution with both oil and vinegar in it. Wiles' solution to > >> > > >> > Fermat's > >> > > >> > last theorem bridges modular and elliptic equations and Sneed and > >> > > >> > Ludwig have used set theory to show compatibility between older > >> > > >> > and > >> > > >> > modern physics (scientists mostly believed this anyway). > > >> > > >> > The question is whether there is something we can apply to the sad > >> > > >> > state of democracy that keeps the egalitarianism better than our > >> > > >> > very > >> > > >> > peculiar voting systems. If we had an "argument machine" we > >> > > >> > might be > >> > > >> > able t get past Crusade/Jihad, Sunni/Shia, Catholic/Protestant, > >> > > >> > Hindi/ > >> > > >> > Muslim and so on - and get into what is common exploitation on all > >> > > >> > sides - the human aspects rigs points out - and to change to the > >> > > >> > more > >> > > >> > positive ones. I may even share (something like) Gabby's > >> > > >> > 'frustration' with agnostics - though an explication of this n > >> > > >> > both > >> > > >> > sides would be long. > > >> > > >> > This is tough territory - and very unlike the spiv Blair uttering > >> > > >> > 'education, education, education' (something I first heard in East > >> > > >> > Germany) and the ease with which we are gulled by such > >> > > >> > blandishments > >> > > >> > with no thought of how we can actually create graduate jobs 50:50 > >> > > >> > and > >> > > >> > what such a society would be. We need to know more about what > >> > > >> > buttons > >> > > >> > the likes of Blair and adverts push. I suspect part of the answer > >> > > >> > would be the creation of technology to support a level playing > >> > > >> > field - > >> > > >> > but as I write this I'm fairly sure we are being warmed up for war > >> > > >> > (it's a bit like Jung's dream). > > >> > > >> > On Jan 18, 11:11 pm, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: > >> > > >> >> Vinegar and oil are prime reasons I don't order salad when out - > >> > > >> >> hate > >> > > >> >> them both! I agree entirely with Gabby on "political argument" > >> > > >> >> and > >> > > >> >> would say in addition academic argument can be as bad and the > >> > > >> >> majority > >> > > >> >> of it is. When asked most people say they vote on the economy - > >> > > >> >> when > >> > > >> >> further asked what the economy is they are clueless. One of us > >> > > >> >> at > >> > > >> >> least will need a steel claw to make a success of Al's lair and > >> > > >> >> our > >> > > >> >> 'freedom through world domination' scheme. > > ... > > read more » --
