You have touched on that "pure science" and where it meets "pure faith" (most of the mystical traditions get there) is, I think, where Pat leads us.
On Friday, October 10, 2014 7:52:01 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: > > I'm often struck that science versus religion is a diversion. There is > bad science, there is bad religion. Some 'religion' (economics) pretends > to be science. Some dreadful power gamers pretend to be religious. > > On Friday, 10 October 2014 12:44:14 UTC+1, archytas wrote: >> >> Perhaps not Molly - science is much less certain and precise than the >> image projected. Deep in, even choosing the maths we use in theorising, >> relies on approximation. The manifestation view of particles is very much >> understood - wave or particle paradox or deeper in whether the photon and >> electron are the same particle viewed in different context, our world the >> history of an electron and so on. Paradox is often raised as thought >> experiment, and is all we are left with in, say, reducing maths to logic. >> >> >> >> On Friday, 10 October 2014 12:24:50 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>> >>> There are many leaps to make to get to where Pat was going. The very >>> notion of science leaving behind cause and effect leaves most people out in >>> the cold. Unless a non dual viewpoint is experienced, it cannot be grasped, >>> but once experienced, both non dual and duality can be understood as one. >>> The paradox becomes the crux. An unwieldy notion for science. >>> >>> On Friday, October 10, 2014 7:05:38 AM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>> >>>> Science itself can be rather trapped in creation myths. Big Bang is >>>> not necessarily a beginning, and nor is that point in our evolution when >>>> we >>>> were 'something primordial' like a quasi-amoeba. Entanglement may not be >>>> something like, say, Molly and I sharing the same air over time - it is a >>>> very special creation in laboratory experiments. The language used gets >>>> lost in translation from micro to macro. >>>> >>>> On Friday, 10 October 2014 09:13:15 UTC+1, archytas wrote: >>>>> >>>>> Interesting book Molly. Going back to 1923 one can find A N >>>>> Whitehead's 'Science and the Modern World' and the process philosophy of >>>>> misplaced concreteness and the unwarranted bifurcation of reality. These >>>>> are old arguments, though non-the-worse for that. Science, of course, is >>>>> unlikely to accept argument based on 'a golden salamander told me' - >>>>> especially when we can't look in the hat ourselves. >>>>> >>>>> On Thursday, 9 October 2014 20:49:07 UTC+1, Molly wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> I found a free book online that tackles some of the stuff of Pat's >>>>>> book, the biggest stuff, the merging of physics and mysticism. While >>>>>> Pat >>>>>> felt no need to reference popular publications and had more of an >>>>>> affinity >>>>>> to the bible and Koran, I can appreciate how many of the points made in >>>>>> his >>>>>> book are made here also. Thanks Pat, wherever you are. >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> http://cloud2.snappages.com/ed35bc002396c05b8c40ef89a4002f59cb2c27f0/Science-of-the-Sages-20141011-Free-eBook-Edition.pdf >>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 8:27:27 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I keep Hop on Pop; Cat in the Hat; & Green Eggs and Ham on my phone, >>>>>>> great for when read too. Ah the hidden escape hatches. >>>>>>> So I'm a child in heart.. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>> >>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>> Sent: Wed, 01 Oct 2014 1:15 AM >>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Pat >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Like saying yes, when the answer is no. But by the time anyone else >>>>>>> finds out the answer is no, no action can correct. yes to everyone and >>>>>>> everything. Goodbye to the innocence of Green Eggs and Ham. Science >>>>>>> rules >>>>>>> the day. We can say what we want, it is meaningless (or is it?). By the >>>>>>> time you know what you are looking at, if you ever do, your innocence >>>>>>> will >>>>>>> be gone with the moment. All you can do is move on to the next Dr. >>>>>>> Seuss >>>>>>> book, if you still have the heart. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 5:37:15 PM UTC-4, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> (",) >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 10:36 PM >>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Pat >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> <https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-D8HGxv7UeOM/VCsUMlFID5I/AAAAAAAAABk/JMVQKQl73bw/s1600/Sam%2BI%2Bam.jpg> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> On Tuesday, September 30, 2014 4:30:00 PM UTC-4, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Maybe, in some ways, we must suffer madness to retain sanity? >>>>>>>>> From nearly 100 years ago. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Desiderata >>>>>>>>> Go placidly amid the noise and haste, and remember what peace >>>>>>>>> there may be in silence. >>>>>>>>> As far as possible without surrender be on good terms with all >>>>>>>>> persons. >>>>>>>>> Speak your truth quietly and clearly; and listen to others, even >>>>>>>>> the dull and ignorant; they too have their story. >>>>>>>>> Avoid loud and aggressive persons, they are vexations to the >>>>>>>>> spirit. >>>>>>>>> If you compare yourself with others, you may become vain and >>>>>>>>> bitter; >>>>>>>>> for always there will be greater and lesser persons than yourself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Enjoy your achievements as well as your plans. >>>>>>>>> Keep interested in your career, however humble; it is a real >>>>>>>>> possession in the changing fortunes of time. >>>>>>>>> Exercise caution in your business affairs; for the world is full >>>>>>>>> of trickery. >>>>>>>>> But let this not blind you to what virtue there is; many persons >>>>>>>>> strive for high ideals; >>>>>>>>> and everywhere life is full of heroism. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Be yourself. >>>>>>>>> Especially, do not feign affection. >>>>>>>>> Neither be critical about love; for in the face of all aridity and >>>>>>>>> disenchantment it is as perennial as the grass. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Take kindly the counsel of the years, gracefully surrendering the >>>>>>>>> things of youth. >>>>>>>>> Nurture strength of spirit to shield you in sudden misfortune. But >>>>>>>>> do not distress yourself with imaginings. >>>>>>>>> Many fears are born of fatigue and loneliness. Beyond a wholesome >>>>>>>>> discipline, be gentle with yourself. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> You are a child of the universe, no less than the trees and the >>>>>>>>> stars; >>>>>>>>> you have a right to be here. >>>>>>>>> And whether or not it is clear to you, no doubt the universe is >>>>>>>>> unfolding as it should. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Therefore be at peace with God, whatever you conceive Him to be, >>>>>>>>> and whatever your labors and aspirations, in the noisy confusion >>>>>>>>> of life keep peace with your soul. >>>>>>>>> With all its sham, drudgery and broken dreams, it is still a >>>>>>>>> beautiful world. Be careful. Strive to be happy. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> © Max Ehrmann 1927 >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 30 September 2014 20:03:14 UTC+1, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> I'm not sure what a real valid person isn't Allan. I miss the >>>>>>>>>> entertainment. The science was Kaliber Yawn, but then I'm a 'cold >>>>>>>>>> dark' >>>>>>>>>> man on physics and anti-traditionalist on god. I hope you and I >>>>>>>>>> would not >>>>>>>>>> sit about pondering naked gymnastics for the young and virtue ethics >>>>>>>>>> like >>>>>>>>>> participants in The Republic, whilst telling slaves to fetch another >>>>>>>>>> glass >>>>>>>>>> of wine or herbal tea or a 'flute girl'. We managed to ban Chazwin, >>>>>>>>>> a fine >>>>>>>>>> chap suffering from cancer at the time. Manners and politesse can >>>>>>>>>> be very >>>>>>>>>> nasty. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, 30 September 2014 19:14:21 UTC+1, Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> As friend outside ME I enjoyed his private messages and liked >>>>>>>>>>> him. He was a real valid person. Miss his input. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>> A Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>> From: archytas <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Tue, 30 Sep 2014 7:51 PM >>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Pat >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> Just about my view Gabby, to be honest. What would we be saying >>>>>>>>>>> if we had known Paul Gauguin - see >>>>>>>>>>> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/art/8011066/Is-it-wrong-to-admire-Paul-Gauguins-art.html >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> - not that I connect any such lifehistory with Pat. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Monday, 29 September 2014 22:15:16 UTC+1, Gabby wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> I agree with your analysis, RP. I share Pat's love for patterns >>>>>>>>>>>> and have experienced some of the side effects also. There are >>>>>>>>>>>> times and >>>>>>>>>>>> situations when this shown behaviour is normal. So these >>>>>>>>>>>> behavioural >>>>>>>>>>>> patterns don't really scare me. What got me really upset was the >>>>>>>>>>>> role of >>>>>>>>>>>> "publisher", a windy bubble creationist. The website was so crap, >>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>> understood I would not send one penny to this dubious enterprise >>>>>>>>>>>> and that >>>>>>>>>>>> they would not do anything to promote the book. I hope Pat has got >>>>>>>>>>>> more in >>>>>>>>>>>> sync with real people again. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Am Montag, 29. September 2014 02:47:55 UTC+2 schrieb RP Singh: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> I have not diagnosed someone's character , rather I have >>>>>>>>>>>>> presented my estimate about his behaviour pattern. It is not a >>>>>>>>>>>>> judgement >>>>>>>>>>>>> but an analysis of abnormal behaviour. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 5:46 AM, Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> We are here to discuss ideas, RP, not the members >>>>>>>>>>>>>> characters. Attack on a members character, even if your opinion >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is in the >>>>>>>>>>>>>> form of a diagnosis, is clearly outlawed in the guidelines. Pat >>>>>>>>>>>>>> shared >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many interesting ideas in this group, and was appreciated by >>>>>>>>>>>>>> many of us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> Where I come from, we call an attack on someones character who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> is not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> present backstabbing, and is, by any measure, as Mando points >>>>>>>>>>>>>> out, a breach >>>>>>>>>>>>>> of trust. Whether currently participating or not, we are not >>>>>>>>>>>>>> here to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> comment on people's character. If you have any comments on >>>>>>>>>>>>>> string theory, >>>>>>>>>>>>>> or any other facet of Pat's book, I suggest you move on to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> discussing his >>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas and away from diagnosing his or anyone else's character. >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, September 28, 2014 7:22:49 PM UTC-4, RP Singh >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have diagnosed an abnormal behaviour and do not attempt to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> make personality assessments of normal people. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 4:43 AM, Richard Blay < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> So RP, Mr. psychologist, what are you going to write about >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Gabby if she goes out of communication based on her postings? >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ;) >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sep 28, 2014 10:45 PM, "Molly" <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I reject your opinion and find it uninformed. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, September 28, 2014 5:56:02 PM UTC-4, RP Singh >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pat was a classical case of paranoid schizophrenia as >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> revealed through his posts. In mental disorders , unlike >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> physiological >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> problems it is not absolutely necessary that you personally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> talk to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> affected person. His disease can be definitely gleaned from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> his thoughts if >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> they are clear enough , which in Pats case were quite >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> transparent. As for >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> the sub-types of schizophrenia , paranoid schizophrenia is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> quite unique >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> because it involves paranoid thinking as well. No disrespect >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> is intended >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> towards Pat , a disease is a disease whether it is physical >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> or mental. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Besides , for years I knew about Pat's ailment but never >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> voiced it out of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> consideration for his feelings , but now that for years he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> has gone out of >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> communication I thought there was no harm in sharing my >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> thoughts with you. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 1:13 AM, Molly <[email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> > wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> He was a very bright guy who offered is knowledge and >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> ideas honestly, and, as you say Allan, without judgement >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> and always with >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> respect. I will spare you my opinion of a psychologist >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> who, without >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> knowing someone personally and having never seen them >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> professionally, would >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publicly declare a diagnosis of a person based on Internet >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> group posts. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, September 28, 2014 3:37:17 PM UTC-4, Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I have a copy also, lol. Took me a while to get it even >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> though I paid for it as soon as I found out it was being >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> published. I have >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> read it . His book has given me a lot to think about. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Most of all Pat was friend, and a legitimate >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> contributing member of this group. He was here when I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> arrived accepting me >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> as I am without judgment. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Which leaves you RP >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 9:09 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Pat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I did buy a copy. Whatever my opinion of the book, I >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> would never deem it a failure. IMHO, that is up to the >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> author, taking into >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> account his own goals and objectives for the book and its >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> first >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> publication. If #books sold is anyone's criterion, they >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> will need to >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reference the facts. I know that Pat worked for several >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> years on that >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> book. Publicly declaring it a failure seems, to me, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> extraordinarily harsh, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> especially if unsubstantiated. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, September 28, 2014 1:57:52 PM UTC-4, Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Did you buy a copy? I did. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: RP Singh <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sun, 28 Sep 2014 7:10 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Pat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Pat had very high expectations. He believed that his >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> 'BOOK' would sell in millions and bring about a paradigm >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> shift. The failure >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> of his book might have been heartbreaking for him and he >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> might just not be >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> in the mood to communicate with us. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sun, Sep 28, 2014 at 9:21 PM, archytas < >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> [email protected]> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sadly no idea. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Sunday, 28 September 2014 02:33:28 UTC+1, Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I think of him too, tried contacting his publisher >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> no response. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> From: Molly <[email protected]> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To: [email protected] >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Sent: Sat, 27 Sep 2014 11:05 PM >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Subject: Mind's Eye Re: Pat >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> I can't find him anywhere. I also think of him from >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> time to time. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Saturday, September 27, 2014 4:45:33 PM UTC-4, >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan Heretic wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Has anyone heard from him he has totally >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> disappeared off radar.. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Allan >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Living Soul >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> emails from it, send an email to minds-eye+...@ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> googlegroups.com. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> optout. 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