Then what do you think the bigger picture is? On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 5:26 PM, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote:
> Correction assumes I was wrong before. I wasn't. The devil is in the > details. But it would take far too long to explain and I'm interested in > the bigger picture. > > > Am Mittwoch, 11. Februar 2015 schrieb Chris Jenkins : > >> No justifications, dear Gabs. Just a correction. :) >> >> >> >> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 4:58 PM, gabbydott <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> Oh yes, What, who, whose questions are being ommitted is quite telling. >>> There is a geometry in that too, of course. I explicitly said no blaming, >>> and you come up with justifications?! For what? Yes, we were close to my >>> wish come true, but then Facil appeared and it all started again. There is >>> nothing I can do about it from where I sit. ;) >>> >>> Am Mittwoch, 11. Februar 2015 schrieb Chris Jenkins : >>> >>>> Oh, how quickly time muddles the recollection...perhaps you should go >>>> back and review some of those posts before I left. It was for the same >>>> reason Craig did, and had nothing to do with the legacy nature of an email >>>> list. I was overloaded between job and family, and simply couldn't keep up >>>> with the volume of communication (a strike against your assertion I left >>>> because I knew it was an outdated format). There were hundreds of posts, >>>> some of them quite combative (*ahem*), and any action taken by mods to keep >>>> the list adhering to its original intent was met with a hearty round of >>>> "fuck you matey". It was draining. >>>> >>>> My goodbye: >>>> https://groups.google.com/forum/#!searchin/minds-eye/by$20chris/minds-eye/ZQB5vLJ2rSI/0GbRK-9nz-AJ >>>> >>>> Note that I put it to the group to decide, specifically because there >>>> was no other way to effectively determine any sort of self governance, and >>>> I didn't feel I had the right to make an arbitrary decision without input. >>>> >>>> You promptly attacked every facet of my decision (and I expected no >>>> less). There was a long and robust conversation with a ton of familiar >>>> faces (most missing now). Your first vote was for a natural death. Have you >>>> gotten your wish? >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 12:37 PM, gabbydott <[email protected]> >>>> wrote: >>>> >>>>> Over a thousand members, 5 actually post? >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> This question coming from you? YOU! Oh come on, Chrissy baby! This is >>>>> an outdated format here that doesn't generate much traffic anymore. You >>>>> know that, that`s your job to know that, that`s why you quit the mod job >>>>> here! No one is blaming you for that but don´t play the innocent here! You >>>>> introduced no transparent polling as to who should become your successor, >>>>> but lay down your crown to the one who threw his hat in the ring, a method >>>>> acceptable for the queen also. Nice try, dear. >>>>> >>>>> 2015-02-11 17:34 GMT+01:00 Chris Jenkins <[email protected]>: >>>>> >>>>>> Yep, he passed the bar some time ago, which is a big part of why he >>>>>> no longer had time for these conversations. >>>>>> >>>>>> He's not alone in that, apparently. Over a thousand members, 5 >>>>>> actually post? >>>>>> >>>>>> On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 11:32 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> Such charm as ever Gabby. The term paedophile is not well taken >>>>>>> here and may really insult Allan and make him sad. Molly was gone, in >>>>>>> the >>>>>>> sense of 'gone fishin'. Craig was becoming a lawyer. Hope he made it. >>>>>>> He >>>>>>> was a Mormon too. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It would have been nice to hear updates on Bacon. There were eleven >>>>>>> Idols. I expect your superior model incorporates them, or perhaps spits >>>>>>> spleen. We can only be sure of never seeing it. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> We model defeasibly now and use a lot of geometry because a lot of >>>>>>> us think in shape. The idea is to make natural language usable by the >>>>>>> machine. It has even more difficulty making sense of just what humans >>>>>>> say >>>>>>> than a pair of paranoid-schizoid positionists. We do consider 'shapes' >>>>>>> like the molygon as underliers in our logic and they are instructive. A >>>>>>> gabbygon is on the horizon - some no doubt thinking this is the best >>>>>>> place. The general theory is called 'bag of words' - we look for >>>>>>> shapes in >>>>>>> text to give context meaning and identify root metaphors. You probably >>>>>>> know how the SNERT stands out like a sore thumb? Maybe accusing old men >>>>>>> and their dogs kind of thing? We are trying to find much more routine >>>>>>> issues in word use to get at some of Tony has described as dishonesty >>>>>>> from >>>>>>> 'bag of words' samples taken from the 'marketplace' and other Idol >>>>>>> conversations. What the machine establishes from metadata - >>>>>>> considering we >>>>>>> often haven't - is fascinating because we are not sure what it i doing >>>>>>> at >>>>>>> all. We have it working on the self-justification of psychopaths at the >>>>>>> moment. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Gravity obviously collapses on seeing a photograph of me. Thanks >>>>>>> for the memory. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> On Wednesday, February 11, 2015 at 3:13:50 PM UTC, Gabby wrote: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> This here is my real lesson. You have been bringing up and pushing >>>>>>>> this idol model so many times that I have forgotten what the one was >>>>>>>> that I >>>>>>>> found better. All that I remember is that it was either located in the >>>>>>>> alchemy or in the metaphysical poetry context. It was a perfect four >>>>>>>> is all >>>>>>>> that is left. It has been overwritten by your four idols. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> 2015-02-11 1:35 GMT+01:00 archytas <[email protected]>: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> Francis Bacon classified the intellectual fallacies of his time >>>>>>>>> under four headings which he called idols. He distinguished them as >>>>>>>>> idols >>>>>>>>> of the Tribe, idols of the e, idols of the Marketplace and idols of >>>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>>> Theatre. An idol is an image, in this case held in the mind, which >>>>>>>>> receives >>>>>>>>> veneration but is without substance in itself. Bacon did not regard >>>>>>>>> idols >>>>>>>>> as symbols, but rather as fixations. They expand a bit like this: >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 1. Tribe >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> The example of desiring to see more order in the universe than is >>>>>>>>> actually there is one of his examples of an idol of the tribe. He >>>>>>>>> thinks >>>>>>>>> that we all suffer from that one. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 2. Cave >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> An example of an idol of the cave (one of Bacon's examples) is >>>>>>>>> that some minds are more drawn to new things and new ideas than they >>>>>>>>> are to >>>>>>>>> what has been around for a long time, while other minds are more >>>>>>>>> drawn to >>>>>>>>> "tradition" and "old school" ideas and ways than they are to newness. >>>>>>>>> Bacon >>>>>>>>> thinks we should become aware what our own tendency is so that we can >>>>>>>>> make >>>>>>>>> corrections for it. He hopes that by becoming aware of our own mind's >>>>>>>>> tendencies toward loving novelty or tradition that we might be able to >>>>>>>>> "correct" for them and then hopefully see things more clearly and >>>>>>>>> truly. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 3. Marketplace >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> We often use words very loosely in common discourse. Bacon sees >>>>>>>>> nothing wrong with that when we are just speaking ordinary language >>>>>>>>> with >>>>>>>>> friends and family. But, when it comes to trying to describe the world >>>>>>>>> accurately and precisely, we should be aware of our tendency to use >>>>>>>>> words >>>>>>>>> loosely and should try to correct for it. When we are trying to speak >>>>>>>>> precisely we should probably not say things like "The mountain is out >>>>>>>>> today" (anyone outside of the Puget Sound area wouldn't have a clue >>>>>>>>> what >>>>>>>>> this means); or "The sun went under a cloud" (the sun did not go >>>>>>>>> anywhere, >>>>>>>>> let along underneath something); or "The sun came up this morning" >>>>>>>>> (the >>>>>>>>> earth actually just rotated). None of those sentences is precisely >>>>>>>>> true, >>>>>>>>> and if we use language imprecisely like this it can sometimes >>>>>>>>> accidentally >>>>>>>>> lead to huge misapprehensions about the world. Bacon thinks this >>>>>>>>> misuse of >>>>>>>>> words and language causes far more problems than we realize. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> 4. Theatre >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> If you can think of someone you know who has recently bought into >>>>>>>>> a whole new religion or philosophy or psychology, you can probably >>>>>>>>> see how >>>>>>>>> they have suddenly come to interpret everything in the universe >>>>>>>>> according >>>>>>>>> to their new world view. That world view has become the new lens >>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>> which they perceive and interpret everything in their world. What >>>>>>>>> Bacon >>>>>>>>> says, though, is that we all do this. We all interpret the world >>>>>>>>> through >>>>>>>>> the lens of our own little world view. It's just easier to see other >>>>>>>>> people >>>>>>>>> doing it than it is to see ourselves doing it. Bacon thinks we should >>>>>>>>> become aware of how these world views shape and distort our own >>>>>>>>> perceptions >>>>>>>>> of the world so that we might be able to correct for it a bit. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> This is old work. My questions are about how we recognise the >>>>>>>>> 'second head' as a delusion yet move hardly at all on obvious >>>>>>>>> political >>>>>>>>> delusions like economics, votes counting, social care, public >>>>>>>>> ignorance and >>>>>>>>> the making invisible of many social issues. For me, deep questions >>>>>>>>> on self >>>>>>>>> are involved. The internet self is unlikely to be, as Tony says, the >>>>>>>>> same >>>>>>>>> as the 'real'one - but then we have know for much longer than the >>>>>>>>> internet >>>>>>>>> people don't say the same things in different contexts. In fact the >>>>>>>>> man or >>>>>>>>> woman in the bar often looks totally different the morning after, let >>>>>>>>> alone >>>>>>>>> what the politician says in a speech compared with when she is with >>>>>>>>> her >>>>>>>>> backroom boys in the spin room. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> . >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:17:04 PM UTC, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> At least with my knowledge of delusions I can imagine certain >>>>>>>>>> people growing a second head overnight and shooting the wrong spare. >>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:11:09 PM UTC, archytas wrote: >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> That seems to run to form Gabby. >>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 10:06:43 PM UTC, Gabby wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Facil picked up your question and gave his answer, I agreed and >>>>>>>>>>>> then came Allan barking at Facil and I told Allan to watch his >>>>>>>>>>>> tongue or >>>>>>>>>>>> leave to his own thread. Only then did you enter the group >>>>>>>>>>>> timeline to >>>>>>>>>>>> start your big daddy has come home show. Now tell me what my >>>>>>>>>>>> deceitful >>>>>>>>>>>> intent was ... Or better, tell me tomorrow, I'm off for today. >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> Am Dienstag, 10. Februar 2015 schrieb archytas : >>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> The only people I meet like that tend to be online students >>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony. We use Skype video conferencing for a few sessions, so >>>>>>>>>>>>> have actually >>>>>>>>>>>>> seen each other. I'm quieter than people imagine, though none >>>>>>>>>>>>> have yet >>>>>>>>>>>>> said 'uglier'. I'm very prone to catch whatever bugs go around >>>>>>>>>>>>> university >>>>>>>>>>>>> environments too, so rather like electronic distance. With >>>>>>>>>>>>> colleagues, the >>>>>>>>>>>>> situation is we know a lot more about each other than most in >>>>>>>>>>>>> online >>>>>>>>>>>>> encounters. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> My version has 'confusion' written through it. I say >>>>>>>>>>>>> something, Gabby takes it another way, or knows what I intended >>>>>>>>>>>>> and chooses >>>>>>>>>>>>> another slant for whatever reason. Online, I assume she has a >>>>>>>>>>>>> sense of >>>>>>>>>>>>> humour and a good turn with words. Deception is not part of this >>>>>>>>>>>>> in the >>>>>>>>>>>>> first place. Just guesses with less risk than so called reality. >>>>>>>>>>>>> I >>>>>>>>>>>>> suppose the classic online deceiver is the groomer - where the >>>>>>>>>>>>> intent is to >>>>>>>>>>>>> set up and image and then meet the victim. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 7:54:18 PM UTC, facilitator >>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> On Tuesday, February 10, 2015 at 2:11:33 PM UTC-5, archytas >>>>>>>>>>>>>> wrote: >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> The delusion that we are what we project is interesting >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Tony. >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> "We claim to be what we project". Your version allows for >>>>>>>>>>>>>> reality mine allows for dishonesty. I think most people want to >>>>>>>>>>>>>> project a >>>>>>>>>>>>>> filtered image of themselves enough so that if we ever meet >>>>>>>>>>>>>> people who >>>>>>>>>>>>>> we've only conversed with online we become slightly astonished >>>>>>>>>>>>>> how >>>>>>>>>>>>>> different they appear and act in "real life". >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a >>>>>>>>>>>>> topic in the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>>>>>>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/2_ICOWzarWY/unsu >>>>>>>>>>>>> bscribe. >>>>>>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an >>>>>>>>>>>>> email to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>>> --- >>>>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in >>>>>>>>> the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit https://groups.google.com/d/ >>>>>>>>> topic/minds-eye/2_ICOWzarWY/unsubscribe. >>>>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email >>>>>>>>> to [email protected]. >>>>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>>> >>>>>> --- >>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in >>>>>> the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/2_ICOWzarWY/unsubscribe. >>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>>>> [email protected]. >>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>> >>>>> >>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> --- >>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >>>> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >>>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/2_ICOWzarWY/unsubscribe. >>>> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >>>> [email protected]. >>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>> >>> -- >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> -- >> >> --- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to a topic in the >> Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >> To unsubscribe from this topic, visit >> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/minds-eye/2_ICOWzarWY/unsubscribe. >> To unsubscribe from this group and all its topics, send an email to >> [email protected]. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >> > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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