For us women this is what we are typically confronted with and have
developed various work-arounds. We fear the divorce solicitor for she is
telling us how we have built our belief system on trusting our feelings.

Am Sonntag, 8. März 2015 schrieb frantheman :

> Sheldon Cooper of *The Big Bang Theory *justifies his claim always to be
> right thus: "If I were wrong I would know it!"
>
> Am Sonntag, 8. März 2015 02:25:40 UTC+1 schrieb frantheman:
>>
>>  What a wonderful overview, Neil! I envy your capacity to cook down the
>> huge amount of controversy involving epistemology, sociology, ideology,
>> modernism and post-modernism into a few comprehensible paragraphs.
>>
>>
>>
>> Personally, I find myself suspended between the kind of modernism
>> proposed by Habermas and the various post-modernist critiques of it. Not
>> always an easy (or consistent) position, I'm trying to figure out a way to
>> construct a hammock on the basis of this suspension which allows me to
>> comfortably swing from one to the other as I please. And didn't someone
>> once comment that consistency is the privilege of small minds?
>>
>>
>>
>> If critical theory has established anything, it's that the old
>> metaphysical arguments about ontology and "das Ding in sich" are just a
>> waste of time. We can't ultimately get out of our skins; our knowledge is
>> *human *knowledge, worked out and communicated in *human *terms, and as
>> such it will always have a cultural and societal framework. Such frameworks
>> are dynamic, interacting with each other, growing, changing ... organic
>> really - which is no wonder, given that humans are organic beings. "Pure"
>> rationality is a chimera, because as humans we can only think in human
>> categories. Should we ever encounter aliens, I suspect that the
>> intercommunication would be difficult, frustrating and endlessly
>> fascinating, because they might very well structure their thinking
>> according to other categories (that's why they can travel faster than
>> light, by the way, their way of doing logic doesn't see the problem of *e=mc2
>> – *they just take the interdimensional back-way through their granny’s
>> garden. That is if we don’t kill them first, or they run away from us in
>> horror to call the inter-stellar exterminators to come and deal with us
>> because we’re not fit to be let loose on civilized galactic society). And,
>> of course, one of the major – perhaps *the *major characteristic of the
>> inevitable human context of our knowledge is language.
>>
>>
>>
>> Habermas is wonderfully attractive in his appeal for reasonable and
>> reasoned discourse on societal issues - this conviction that it is possible
>> through dialogue and mutual understanding to reach conclusions which will
>> actually make things better. In the end, of course, he's a good
>> old-fashioned bourgeois liberal who believes in "progress". The problem
>> with him is that he is convinced that his position (and the post-WWII
>> western German society in which he lived in, and which he has worked on
>> forming all his adult life) is the *superior *position (as I said before
>> - typical German philosopher). I become ever more suspicious of people who
>> *know *that they're right - and that everyone else is consequently less
>> right - or to put it more bluntly, *wrong.*
>>
>>
>>
>> This is where the post-modernists gleefully point their fingers at him.
>> Denying others absolute truth, he implicitly and pragmatically claims it
>> for himself. (It’s also why he can’t stand them!) On the other hand, the
>> various post-modernist *turns *run the risk (and are repeatedly accused)
>> of falling into complete *laissez-faire *multi-culti, anything-goes
>> relativism. If our truth-values – to which our moral values belong – are
>> societally, historically and culturally conditioned, what right do I have
>> to claim my moral values are better than yours? Weren’t the niggers better
>> off as slaves on the plantation, being looked after by a kind and
>> paternalistic massa, than being condemned to living a constant life of
>> danger, deprivation, drugs and depression in some run-down project in
>> contemporary decrepit Detroit? Or let’s not even bother with spurious
>> justifications, let’s go all the way to social Darwinism; the strong do as
>> they will, and the weak suffer as they must. As it was in the beginning, is
>> now, and ever shall be, world without end, Amen.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, at the moment, this is where I find myself intellectually at the
>> moment, gently swinging in my hammock between these two positions.
>> Descartes may have found his answer to doubt in his own affirmation of his
>> self-cognitive rationality (though Dan Dennett
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consciousness_Explained> believes he can
>> define this out of existence), but it’s still a big step to the conviction
>> of the ultimate *rightness *of the particular positions one espouses.
>> Maybe the recognition of the conditionality of our own premises, and the
>> openness to the possibility of their correctibility – while not
>> automatically offering them up as being completely conjectural and relative
>> - is the real prerequisite for meaningful discourse. Or as Oliver Cromwell
>> (normally not someone over-inclined to questioning his own righteousness)
>> once asked the Assembly of the Church of Scotland, “I beseech you, in the
>> bowels of Christ, think it possible you may be mistaken!”  Of course, that
>> still leaves the question open; how can you even begin to discuss with
>> people who *know *they’re right?
>>
>>
>> Am Samstag, 7. März 2015 12:54:02 UTC+1 schrieb archytas:
>>
>> Good to see you too Don.  I'm not much into the nuances of translation
>> stuff, partly because I lack Gabby's skills and Francis' patience.  There
>> are many versions of Chris' 'make the language simple enough for
>> translation' angle - one here is called the 'Crystal Method' and is taught
>> to our bullshit bureaucrats, so they can confuse us with smaller words.  We
>> scientists got the 'Fog Index', screwed as soon as you use an equation or
>> start talking about attribution tests and extreme value analysis.
>>
>> I see another kind of 'translation'.  Habermas is actually quite easy
>> compared with other Germans like Gunter Ludwig on how scientific theories
>> come about.  Russell and Whitehead wrote three volumes on why one and one
>> make two and, eventually, were wrong.  Things get relative when we try to
>> ground stuff in origin (I was told to remove the word 'stuff' from my
>> thesis as it was too common a word).  I translate this complex social stuff
>> into a long line of philosophical effort.
>>
>> There is no 'start' or 'origin'.  If I mention the pre-Socratics and
>> the pyrrhonists, I know they were much influenced from Persia and India.
>> They at least knew argument can nearly always be made in several different
>> ways that are very difficult to choose between.  One gets a line from this
>> stuff to Descartes and that 'I am thinking therefore I am' stuff - I'm more
>> of an I woke up and am still here bloke.  Socrates and Bacon more or less
>> said public opinion ain't worth shit and Descartes continued this in
>> radical doubt, supposedly grounded on not being able to deny one's own
>> presence.  Actually, there being thoughts does not imply a thinker, and if
>> you doubt everything you are, in fact, doubting nothing and have made doubt
>> into something that can't ground itself.  Wittgenstein eventually says we
>> have been arguing over the same terrain for centuries, not resolved
>> anything and thus must be bewitched by the language we are using.  So we
>> should know more about language.
>>
>> This turns into what we now call social epistemology, away from the
>> individual introspective sole thinker to something more social.  Marx is a
>> classic example and the discipline of sociology.  One can split this in
>> many ways, though the standard differences are as follows:
>> " The classical approach could be realized in at least two forms. One
>> would emphasize the traditional epistemic goal of acquiring true beliefs.
>> It would study social practices in terms of their impact on the
>> truth-values of agents' beliefs. A second version of the classical approach
>> would focus on the epistemic goal of having justified or rational beliefs.
>> Applied to the social realm, it might concentrate, for example, on when a
>> cognitive agent is justified or warranted in accepting the statements and
>> opinions of others. Proponents of the anti-classical approach have little
>> or no use for concepts like truth and justification. In addressing the
>> social dimensions of knowledge, they understand "knowledge" as simply what
>> is believed, or what beliefs are "institutionalized" in this or that
>> community, culture, or context. They seek to identify the social forces and
>> influences responsible for knowledge production so conceived. Social
>> epistemology is theoretically significant because of the central role of
>> society in the knowledge-forming process. It also has practical importance
>> because of its possible role in the redesign of information-related social
>> institutions."
>>
>>  Karl Marx's theory of ideology could well be considered a type of social
>> epistemology. On one interpretation of Marx's conception of "ideology", an
>> ideology is a set of beliefs, a world-view, or a form of consciousness that
>> is in some fashion false or delusive. The cause of these beliefs, and
>> perhaps of their delusiveness, is the social situation and interests of the
>> believers. Since the theory of ideology, so described, is concerned with
>> the truth and falsity of beliefs, it might even be considered a form of
>> classical social epistemology.
>> Karl Mannheim (1936) extended Marx's theory of ideology into a sociology
>> of knowledge. He classed forms of consciousness as ideological when the
>> thoughts of a social group can be traced to the group's social situation or
>> "life conditions". Critical theory aims at emancipation and enlightenment
>> by making agents aware of hidden coercion in their environment, enabling
>> them to determine where their true interests lie. Beliefs that agents would
>> agree upon in the ideal speech situation are ipso facto true beliefs
>> (Habermas and Luhmann 1971: 139, 224). Here a social communicational device
>> is treated as a type of epistemic standard.
>> Habermas, Jurgen and Luhmann, Niklas (1971), Theorie der Gesellschaft
>> oder Sozialtechnologie – Was Leistet die Systemforschung?  Frankfurt:
>> Suhrkamp.
>>
>> I could easily extend this to a book so tedious that Francis would be
>> smashing windows rather than cleaning them.  I have read loads of this
>> stuff, only to conclude the mechanisms involved more or less avoid the
>> human condition.   In the 1930s, Ludwik Fleck (1896–1961), a Polish-Jewish
>> microbiologist, developed the first system of the historical philosophy and
>> sociology of science. Fleck claimed that cognition is a collective
>> activity, since it is only possible on the basis of a certain body of
>> knowledge acquired from other people. When people begin to exchange ideas,
>> a thought collective arises, bonded by a specific mood, and as a result of
>> a series of understandings and misunderstandings a peculiar thought style
>> is developed. When a thought style becomes sufficiently sophisticated, the
>> collective divides itself into an esoteric circle (professionals) and an
>> exoteric circle (laymen). A thought style consists of the active elements,
>> which shape ways in which members of the collective see and think about the
>> world, and of the passive elements, the sum of which is perceived as an
>> “objective reality”. What we call “facts”, are social constructs: only what
>> is true to culture is true to nature. Thought styles are often
>> incommensurable: what is a fact to the members of a thought collective A
>> sometimes does not exist to the members of a thought collective B, and a
>> thought that is significant and true to the members of A may sometimes be
>> false or meaningless for members of B.
>>
>> The story goes on and on.  Most people get more or less no chance to
>> learn any of it.  Fleck's ideas in brief are in“Crisis in Science. Towards
>> a Free and More Human Science”, in R. S. Cohen and Th. Schnelle (eds.),
>> 1986, pp. 153–158.
>>
>> One of the big questions is how we can translate much of this into
>> something that translates to quick understanding and doesn't lead to a
>> bunch of Guardians replacing current control as in Soviet Paradise or
>> neo-liberalism under the US military umbrella.
>>
>>
>> On Saturday, March 7, 2015 at 7:06:31 AM UTC, Don Johnson wrote:
>>
>> Very much enjoying the commentary. Gabby, I have read that the divide
>> between what is classical-liberalism and modern-liberalism in the States
>> began during FDR's administration. Campiagn speeches by Hoover and
>> Roosevelt were both peppered with classical-liberal rhetoric. Indeed, there
>> was some competition to see who would be the most fiscally conservative.
>> FDR won. Then came the New Deal and unprecedented goverment spending and
>> involvement in everyday life. Thus changing the public's view on what
>> "liberalism" was all about. Now we have a neoclassical liberalism called
>> Libertarianism. It will be interesting to see how this will be perverted in
>> the decades to come as no doubt it will be if we ever get a President
>> elected on this ticket.
>>
>> Nice to see the old crew at it again.
>>
>> dj
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Mar 4, 2015 at 7:03 PM, frantheman <[email protected]> wrote:
>>
>> Habermas is fine with "herrschaftsfreier Diskurs" as long as he has the
>> "Herrschaft"! :-)
>>
>> I came at Habermas sideways this semester; I was doing pretty intensive
>> work on the historian Hans-Ulrich Wehler
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans-Ulrich_Wehler>, in particular his
>> monumental five-volume *Deutsche Sozialgeschichte 1770-1989*, and you
>> can't work on Wehler without having to look at Habermas. The two of them
>> met as kids in the Hitler-Jugend in Gummersbach, where Habermas was
>> Wehler's *Gruppenführer*, and remained friends and close associates all
>> their lives - coming to each other's defence in many of those vicious
>> intellectual fights German academics are so fond of (e.g. the Sonderweg
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sonderweg> discussion, or the
>> Historikerstreit <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historikerstreit>).
>>
>> Both Habermas and Wehler are proponents of what is called in German the 
>> *bürgerliche
>> Gesellschaft*. To come back to a major theme of this thread, this is a
>> term which it is very difficult to accurately translate into English
>> without losing much of its meaning in German and adding things in English
>> which are not there in German. There is, in fact, no real English word for
>> *bürgerlich*; conventionally the French term *bourgeois *is used. But 
>> *bourgeois
>> *has many negative connotations in English (particularly since the 60s,
>> when it was almost exclusively used in a pejorative Marxist sense) - 
>> *bürgerlich
>> *is used in German in a much more varied, and often matter-of-fact
>> fashion. "Middle class" could also be used, but that's a term that can also
>> be problematic. "Civil society" also captures some of its meaning in a more
>> neutral sense. When I use the term "liberal democracy," or "western
>> liberalism" in English, I think the German translation for what I am trying
>> to describe is *bürgerliche Gesellschaft*. And when I speak of "New
>> Deal, social-democratic, open, liberal (in the true sense) democracy," it's
>> basically an attempt to describe what German much more concisely calls 
>> *soziale
>> Marktwirtschaft*.
>>
>> Translation is difficult, because languages both define and are defined
>> by culture. What's the German for leadership? *Führung. *So what's the
>> German for leader? *Führer. *But because of German history, there are
>> major difficulties with using that word, particularly in a German context.
>> In English there's no problem with calling Angela Merkel the "German
>> leader." But *deutsche Führer *or *Führerin? *Good luck with that
>> one! Or, taking a feminist turn - the most common German translation for
>> authority (in the sense of *power/control*) is *Herrschaft. *How about 
>> *Frau-schaft?
>> *Or even *Frau schafft*!
>>
>> Language is tricky - translation even more so.
>>
>> Am Mittwoch, 4. März 2015 23:16:47 UTC+1 schrieb Gabby:
>>
>> Much as I would like to see it, I find myself despairing more and more
>> over the possibility of the kind of decent rational discourse Chris is
>> pleading for.
>>
>>
>> Hm? Chris was pleading for you and Habermas is pleading for
>> "herrschaftsfreier Diskurs", so not all hope is lost. ;)
>>
>> *Western liberalism *is the concept that I find needs further
>> problematization. This is what I would see you working on. I am often
>> astounded how differently the idea of "liberal" is taken in English
>> speaking countries.
>>
>> 2015-03-04 17:55 GMT+01:00 frantheman <[email protected]>:
>>
>> One of my professors has suggested that I do a research paper next
>> semester on the reception of Habermas' thinking about society in the
>> English-speaking (academic) world, Neil. I'm internally resisting because I
>> find him so long-winded, obtuse, boring, and self-important (a typical
>> German academic in other words). I can think of about a hundred things I'd
>> rather do than immerse myself in his writings - like cleaning the windows
>> in my flat for instance.
>>
>> Fundamentally, Habermas is also a typical German philosopher (like
>> Leibnitz and Hegel) in that he believes he lives in the best possible world
>> - that of centre-left North European liberal democracy (though, should he
>> in his dotage find the way to this group, he would probably deny this and
>> condemn us all from his self-appointed position as the doyen of German
>> ivory-tower intellectuals). I would argue that there may have been a moment
>> when he was perhaps partially right, but this moment has gone.
>>
>> In a longer historical context of the past 250 years, there was a moment
>> when the rationalist liberal bourgeois spirit seemed to be reaching some
>> kind of fruition in the West - between the end of WWII and the beginning of
>> the 80s. Then came Reagan, Thatcher, and the religious orthodoxy of
>> neo-liberal economics and the moment was lost. What I believe happened was
>> that the old (and some new) elites had finally recovered enough power over
>> the basic decency of New Deal, social-democratic, open, liberal (in the
>> true sense) democracy to once more rearrange things to their own maximised
>> benefit. This is the central point made by Piketty in *Capital in the
>> Twenty-First Century. *No wonder he has been so viciously attacked by
>> various acolytes of neo-liberal economic orthodoxy. Since then, Habermas'
>> "unfinished project" of western liberalism has been continuously - and
>> purposely - unravelled, often leaving the forms intact while killing the
>> living substance.
>>
>> Much as I would like to see it, I find myself despairing more and more
>> over the possibility of the kind of decent rational discourse Chris is
>> pleading for. It's possible - sometimes - in microcosmic areas like this
>> forum (though even here it can be easily sabotaged). There's one way of
>> telling the narrative of the history of ideas in the past 250 years which
>> goes like this: Once upon a time there was a dream of rational and reasoned
>> discourse. It was called the Enlightenment. It soon became tainted by the
>> virus of Romanticism and it turned into Modernity, which came with lots of
>> unpleasant features like nationalism and fascism. It has now almost
>> completely disappeared, constantly castigated by braying apologists of
>> nationalist, ideological, or religious certainty before ultimately drowning
>> in a sea of triviality.
>>
>> Of course, that's only one way of telling the story. I don't think I'd
>> like to live in a platonic republic ruled by philosopher-kings and
>> Robespierre, Saint-Just, and the Committee of Public Safety justified the
>> Terror with an appeal to Reason. As humans we are more than just our
>> rationality. This is what makes real communication so difficult - but also
>> so rich and fascinating. What we need, perhaps, is less certainty and
>> self-righteousness, more decency, respect, and listening.
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 10:10:37 AM UTC+1, archytas wrote:
>>
>> Interesting dictionaries Gabby.  You actually sound a bit like Luhmann in
>> this tense and grammar version.  We could send all our messages to you in
>> order to get the genuine and objective version of whatever we meant to say,
>> though I'm sure you might resist the censorship implications of the new
>> Gabbledegook.  Understanding transitions from sensual to intellectual and
>> various aspects of nuance has long been part of racist and classist
>> presupposition in intelligence.
>>
>> The verstehen problematic includes the idea that we should not expect to
>> treat language in our theoretical expectations, as 'naive' participants
>> have their own assumptions and hypotheses of which researchers themselves
>> may be ignorant.  One thus goes for more 'ethno' approaches such as
>> ethnomethodology.  The literature is generally boring, not unlike
>> dictionaries.  I suppose we enter the learning hoping to stand on the
>> shoulders of giants, but few enter these educational processes on a
>> voluntary basis.  Science, with its objective outcomes, should be easy to
>> teach, yet is not.  In Chris' 'strip the language for easy interpretation'
>> terms, what could be easier than teaching people simple standardisation
>> like "measuring a meniscus"?  You can demonstrate the doing to explain the
>> word and necessary actions.  Now send the little dears off to do some
>> titration.  Simples!  Yet much gets in the way even of this kind of simple
>> instruction.  Many kids aren't even considered fit to enter the laboratory
>> and, indeed, even fit to have such simple pointed instruments as a compass
>> to learn a bit of geometry (owing to stabbings, self-harm and so on).
>>
>> Gabby's spin is a delight, even if I get a vision of her standing with
>> two feet in a rabbit hole, and was waiting for the barb at the end, which
>> came here with a smile.  AI can catch these patterns.  Most of us in this
>> game have noticed we are after machine intelligence because we despair of
>> the glib internet world Francis describes.and that defeasible logic loses
>> all beauty contests with Chris holding up a craft beer.  The despair on
>> human rationality and the libidinal biologically bound trivial is a
>> motivator, perhaps once found in science cutting out the Idols Gabby has an
>> undeclared better version of she has forgotten, in trying to get machines
>> to do what humans have always failed at - argument properly informed by
>> Reason and 'big data' approaches not constrained to selling us another
>> planet-burning widget.  One thing I think we have been very bad at is
>> grasping frames of ideology, including why people generally act in them.
>> This was the big theme in both Luhmann and Habermas, who did nothing on how
>> we might live without the violence of poverty and needing to make livings.
>> There is no grasp of Gabby as the existential cash girl she described
>> herself as.  One can model all of us in fuzzy sets on such lines, not
>> unlike her idea of the trace of people's histories to the 'moment'.
>> Socrates was described by his wife as a good-looking waster, not much good
>> at putting food on the family table and helping with childcare.  We neglect
>> what argument is and why anyone else would want to listen to it.  The dogs
>> watch me, concerned only that I finish and enter their rationality of being
>> off the lead along the riverbank.
>>
>> There is an old joke about standing in something on both feet.  This is a
>> punishment in hell, standing in excrement up to one's neck.  This, of
>> course, is for the tea break.  One spends the rest of the day standing on
>> one's hands.
>>
>>
>> On Wednesday, March 4, 2015 at 12:54:25 AM UTC, Gabby wrote:
>>
>> What a question, Francis! Here is basically everything you can get about
>> "verstehen" in ist linguistic context:
>>
>> http://www.dwds.de/?view=1&qu=verstehen
>>
>>  I guess you are interested in the tipping point when the sensuous
>> meaning "I am standing in this with both my feet" transgressed to the field
>> where it became an expression for the process of intellectual comprehension:
>>
>>  in-stân besagt 'in einem gegenstande stehen, fuszen, zuhause sein',
>> under-standen, under-stân 'dazwischen d. h. mitten darin stehen'. wenn nun
>> noch, ob auch ganz vereinzelt, ein nhd. bestehen (th. 1, 1672) in demselben
>> sinne gebraucht wird, so würde es die anschauung vertreten 'einen
>> gegenstand umstehen, bestehen, in seiner gewalt haben' (ahd. bi-standan
>> vgl. umbi-: griech. ἀμφι-). von diesem ausgangspunkte läszt sich der
>> übergang von dem sinnlichen auf das geistige gebiet verstehen, wie uns die
>> ähnlich entwickelten bildungen be-greifen und ver-nehmen noch heute
>> semasiologisch durchsichtig sind.
>>
>>
>>
>> You can also see what the "ver"-prefix can do and has done to the root
>> words and vice versa: http://www.dwds.de/?view=1&qu=ver
>>
>>
>> And to do something "aus Versehen" would be an example of how an educated
>> Minds Eyer would justify their mistake. ;)
>>
>> 2015-03-03 18:56 GMT+01:00 frantheman <[email protected]>:
>>
>> I and I sometimes overstand. Sometimes don't! And does *ver-stehen *have
>> the same relationship to standing as *sich vertun *has to doing?
>>
>> On Tuesday, March 3, 2015 at 6:36:22 PM UTC+1, Gabby wrote:
>>
>> Cheers Francis!
>>
>> Schonhaltung or schon Haltung. The break makes the difference. And your
>> medical knowledge bridges the gap.
>>
>> Actually "overs", short form of "overstand", was my initial key word that
>> got me looking deeper/higher into language construction long time ago. I
>> was deeply impressed by what I had learned about Jamaican itations and
>> Rastafari poltitical poetry. In your case the ability to do religious
>> contextualization of language items certainly helps when studying
>> Kulturwissenschaften. Viel Erfolg!
>>
>> 2015-03-03 17:15 GMT+01:00 frantheman <[email protected]>:
>>
>> I'm still here - in some sense anyway. More passive, thoughtful,
>> watching, listening and thinking. As they say on Facebook; it's
>> complicated. There's such a volume of *stuff *out on the web now that I
>> find my reluctance to contribute to it growing ever stronger in the past
>> years. Do I have anything to say that thousands are others aren't saying?
>> Is any attempt we make to say something not drowned out in a cacophony of
>> of puppies, selfies, mindless chatter and incivility? In a world where
>> significance seems to have become dependent on reduction to a viral
>> hash-tagged tweet, or a five-second video on Vine, what happens to depth,
>> complexity, the possibility of real interaction? Has communication finally
>> reduced itself to atomic brevity and superficiality? Otherwise - tl;dr.
>>
>> "There is always an easy solution to every human problem -- neat,
>> plausible, and wrong." What Menken actually said was a little different;
>> "Explanations exist; they have existed for all time; there is always a
>> well-known solution to every human problem — neat, plausible, and wrong" 
>> (*The
>> Divine Afflatus*, 1917). Even within the same language quotational drift
>> occurs. Interpretative drift is a constitutive element of discourse. Our
>> communication is always a hit-and-miss thing, or maybe, better, a
>> constantly creative process. What you say, what I understand. Each of us
>> culturally in our own particular place, but sharing enough to bring some
>> kind of communication into being - a wonderful, organic, continually
>> self-creating kind of thing, with all sorts of levels, eddies,
>> side-effects. An orchestral symphonic symbolic performance of memes and
>> tropes. And that's just when it's carried out between people who "share" a
>> common language.
>>
>> Accurate, one-to-one translation/conveyance of meaning is impossible;
>> even between two speakers of the same language. Communication becomes
>> something else, something independent. The German theorist, Niklas
>> Luhmann <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niklas_Luhmann>, has some
>> interesting ideas in this area. It's a deeply counter-intuitive way of
>> seeing things - and useful as an instrument to challenge one's own
>> assumptions, even if you don't go all the way with him.
>>
>> Nobody - as far as I know - has translated Luhmann's major works from
>> German into English. Understandably - it's hard enough trying to figure out
>> what exactly he's saying in one language without trying to express it in
>> another, and when you move to his discussions and arguments with Habermas
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/J%C3%BCrgen_Habermas> (another German
>> master of the complicated obtuse) ... forgeddaboudit!
>>
>> Though translation programmes have improved in the past decade, they're
>> still a long way from being good. Because "meaning"/"sense" is always
>> contextual (human subjective contextual), therefore always fluid and
>> shifting. This is more than just "fuzzy logic." I suspect we will need
>> genuine AI as the basis of operating systems to make them really work. Two
>> people from different lingusitic backrounds with very limited vocabularies
>> can communicate better - agree that they have achieved some kind of
>> understanding - than a programme which has access to comprehensive
>> dictionaries.
>>
>> For the past months I've been formally studying - in the academic sense -
>> in German. *Kulturwissenschaft *at that. It's a weird experience -
>> there's stuff I can understand better in English, other stuff works better
>> in German. There isn't even a good translation of the subject I'm doing my
>> Masters in. A literal English translation of *Kulturwissenschaft *would
>> be "cultural science" but English academia generally calls it "cultural
>> studies." Which, when you think about it, means something else. Well, it's
>> a post-modernist phenomenon anyway, which, arguably, allows one to be
>> multidimensional with reference to meaning!
>>
>> And sometimes it can be enormously productive to take an ordinary,
>> everyday word in a particular language and twist it, mine it, pummel it, 
>> *rape
>> *it, alienate it. Poets do this all the time. Sometimes even academics
>> (a pretty mediocre lot for the most part) manage it.
>>
>> ...
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