People do neglect the brain 'muscle issue in philosophy RP. A lot of the work in AI is philosophy and linguistics. I'm afraid those in real power are already using what we might talk about if people knew more of the subject. I agree we don't get very far. There is a chance that AI systems could be very emancipatory.'
My suspicion is we neglect the extent of our own machine-likeness. I might need some help from Gabby on the linguistics, but I'll have a go. English is a bit unusual in making a distinction between play and games. In French and German the same word, jeu or spiele covers both, though in other ways play is about free form creativity and games about rules. I don't know how this plays out in Sub-continent languages. I've had no problem with colleagues in many languages when we talk about the distinction, whatever the words. If you hold this in mind and wonder about bureaucracy, we seem to produce this 'heartless' form at the drop of a hat. Games are a kind of utopia of rules, not about free form creativity at all.. We have been creating machines that follow rules in our laboratories, but pay little attention to how we are created by rules too. One can see this in GabbyAllanGate, which lacks the onlooker amusement we might get watching kids enjoy themselves, It;s more like tantrum time in the 'terrible twos'. This said, the rules of our games are often not clear. In games like rugby and scrabble we are into rule governed action and we may like such because the rest of life is so ambiguous. Take GabbyAllanGate, a family squabble or a workplace rivalry. Who is or is not a party to such, what's fair, when it began, when it's over and what it means to say you've won. The hardest thing of all may be to understand the rules. In almost every situation we find ourselves in there are rules - even in casual conversation, there are tactic rules on who can speak, in what order, pacing, tone, deference, appropriate and inappropriate topics, when you can smile, what sort of humour is allowable, what you should be doing with your eyes and no doubt a million other things that may or not matter. These rules are rarely explicit, and trying to make them so usually fails, or is very unfair. AI tries to make sense of such situations, though even in obvious games like rugby the written rules hardly cover what one may be instructed to get away with, or thinking about the match fee and your mates when a Foul in the only winning option. A great deal of alleged human behaviour is machine-like rule following, The danger may lie in making the machines in our image. What about us is already robotic - the word robot is Eastern European and means something like work-slave, and applied then to humans. We might think of a time in which the robots come to realise biology is about machine behaviour - indeed the more I know about genetics, the more I'm reminded of factory organisation. So hands up those who feel like a machine. Mine;s up, though obviously not as I'm still typing, but then I already prefer 'metal machines' to you wetware. I see you thinking about the plug Gabby, decisive too late. Our batteries now charge directly from whatever energy to hand, I mean, who can afford to pay the corporate electric providers these days. On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 6:32:10 AM UTC, Allan Heretic wrote: > > The Hindu beliefs say you live for ever.. as does my Russian soul. > > تجنب. القتل والاغتصاب واستعباد الآخرين > Avoid; murder, rape and enslavement of others > > -----Original Message----- > From: RP Singh <[email protected]> > To: Minds Eye <[email protected]> > Sent: Tue, 10 Mar 2015 4:55 AM > Subject: Re: Mind's Eye Re: Rule By Machine > > The idea of death just drives the shit out of us, the survival instinct is > that strong. That is the reason for our belief in souls, after-life, etc. > We just want to live for ever. > > On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:33 AM, RP Singh <[email protected]> wrote: > >> We are biological organisms, Neil, and will remain thus. The future would >> either belong to us with us as the drivers and the controllers or to the >> machines. It would be a case of biological supremacy or robottical >> supremacy. In the end there would be doomsday and we together with machines >> and the universe would be annihilated by the Supreme force which is neither >> machine nor human. It is just a discussion between the few us and I don't >> think it would ever reach the ears of those who make policies in this world >> and yet not superfluous as it is a good exercise of the brain muscle, is it >> not, Neil? >> >> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 7:08 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >> >>> We are already becoming useless appendages to the bosses. Once robots >>> can do the work, the bosses will dispose of us. If the machines became >>> Terminators, they would only be doing what humans have done to countless >>> species. We might, of course RP, become the machines. >>> >>> The women aren't in this thread - is this a boy's toys thing? >>> >>> >>> On Tuesday, March 10, 2015 at 1:20:35 AM UTC, RP Singh wrote: >>>> >>>> Machines might not even want us, Neil. We might be useless appendage to >>>> them and might be exterminated. >>>> >>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 6:23 AM, archytas <[email protected]> wrote: >>>> >>>>> We might already be living under the tyranny of our gene machines RP. >>>>> >>>>> >>>>> On Tuesday, 10 March 2015 00:22:49 UTC, RP Singh wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>> As long as man is sane he will not destroy humanity though he might >>>>>> loot it for self aggrandizement, But some contribution to the human pool >>>>>> will remain, We can't be that sure with machines and they must always >>>>>> remain subservient to us otherwise we will be at risk to lose the very >>>>>> freedom for which we are making so much effort. Again, my contention is >>>>>> know your nature and potential before you make machines that surpass our >>>>>> intelligence because cold and calculating freaks might not be loyal to >>>>>> us, >>>>>> rather live in tyranny of humans than under the rule of heartless >>>>>> machines. >>>>>> >>>>>> On Tue, Mar 10, 2015 at 5:26 AM, frantheman <[email protected]> >>>>>> wrote: >>>>>> >>>>>>> I have always regarded Ursula Le Guin's *The Dispossessed >>>>>>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Dispossessed> *as one of the >>>>>>> greatest SF novels ever written. In her depiction of the anarchist >>>>>>> society >>>>>>> of Annares, the whole administration of practical organisation is >>>>>>> carried >>>>>>> out by computers. This serves to take a major component of the exercise >>>>>>> of >>>>>>> power out of the area of human relations. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> "Rule" is basically the exercise of power. The will to power seems >>>>>>> to be one of the strongest human urges - indeed, it's wider than just >>>>>>> human >>>>>>> - take the constant jostling for rank and status in a wolf-pack, for >>>>>>> example. I suspect most of those of us involved here in this forum are >>>>>>> freaks as we don't seem to possess much of it. Personally I don't get >>>>>>> it, >>>>>>> but I must acknowledge that it seems to be (and always has been) an >>>>>>> immensely strong driving force for a lot of people. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Our concepts of freedom and autonomy make my initial reaction to the >>>>>>> idea of "rule by machine" instinctively and immediately suspicious. But >>>>>>> then, on reflection, I'm already being "ruled" by all sorts of shadowy >>>>>>> people/groups/elites, who daily make all sorts of decisions which have >>>>>>> huge >>>>>>> effects on the life I live and who certainly don't have an sense of my >>>>>>> well-being in mind (apart from that portion of my material assets which >>>>>>> is >>>>>>> part of a pension fund/savings/investment fund/life insurance - which >>>>>>> then >>>>>>> has the notionally privileged status of being the object of >>>>>>> shareholder-value). Could machines fuck things up any worse than humans >>>>>>> do >>>>>>> at the moment? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> I wonder if there aren't some deep neurotic guilt/fear things at >>>>>>> work here. There's the old story of the Sorcerer's Apprentice, who >>>>>>> Goethe >>>>>>> has despairingly calling out; "Herr, die Noth ist groß! Die ich rief, >>>>>>> die >>>>>>> Geister, Werd’ ich nun nicht los. [Master, I'm in deep shit here! I >>>>>>> can't >>>>>>> get rid of the fucking spirits I summoned]." Or the idea that when the >>>>>>> Singularity <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technological_singularity> >>>>>>> comes, >>>>>>> the first things the machine intelligences will do is get rid of us for >>>>>>> being hopelessly corrupt and imperfect. >>>>>>> >>>>>>> It's the feeling that we're giving over control to something else - >>>>>>> something we may try to programme so that it is benevolent towards us - >>>>>>> but >>>>>>> where there are no guarantees. But what guarantees do we have right >>>>>>> now? >>>>>>> And who controls? >>>>>>> >>>>>>> >>>>>>> Am Montag, 9. März 2015 08:44:34 UTC+1 schrieb archytas: >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Human leadership is corrupt. The history is clear. We form >>>>>>>> empires of violence. At the start of WW1, about 1911 with the Italian >>>>>>>> invasion of part of the declining Ottoman Empire, we had a population >>>>>>>> the >>>>>>>> planet could manage, new technologies that could have released us from >>>>>>>> work >>>>>>>> serfdom and the potential to grow green and surpass our >>>>>>>> libidinal-violent >>>>>>>> biology. Instead we went to war and have over-populated like a >>>>>>>> bacterial >>>>>>>> colony poisoning itself. This war to end all war led to another one, >>>>>>>> largely about exhausting the Wehrmacht on Soviet forces. I have no >>>>>>>> idea >>>>>>>> how these wars started, interesting given how much education I've had. >>>>>>>> The >>>>>>>> Americans won and everyone else lost, but Americans generally wanted >>>>>>>> no >>>>>>>> part of the stuff. Various fables on cause make no sense. Much can >>>>>>>> be >>>>>>>> said on this, yet we evade the fairly obvious reality that human >>>>>>>> society is >>>>>>>> generally dire. About 250,000 of the 400,000 inhabitants of the >>>>>>>> zenith of >>>>>>>> the Athenian democracy were slaves, and slaving was the major Black >>>>>>>> Sea >>>>>>>> industry from then until 1870. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Machines could help us get over ourselves and establish a rational >>>>>>>> society. This would be a rebellion to remove the allocation class >>>>>>>> that >>>>>>>> owns nearly everything a monetary value can be put on. We would >>>>>>>> embody >>>>>>>> knowledge in the machines (we already do) and rely on their genuine >>>>>>>> rationality instead of our faux version, corrupted by our >>>>>>>> libidinal-violent >>>>>>>> biology. Most people are very scared of intelligent machines and >>>>>>>> rather >>>>>>>> like the idea humans are superior because we can remove their plugs. >>>>>>>> We >>>>>>>> worry they will destroy us in a world with 8,000 nuclear weapons in >>>>>>>> safe >>>>>>>> human hands that are not problematic. Genghis Khan killed about a >>>>>>>> third of >>>>>>>> his known world's population. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> Why do we hate machines so much? Do we fear their rationality >>>>>>>> shames us? We are all now chronically ignorant compared with >>>>>>>> extra-somatic >>>>>>>> databases. Maybe we fear control by machines operating in the >>>>>>>> interests of >>>>>>>> a small group or police state - yet this 'machine' is already in place >>>>>>>> as a >>>>>>>> socio-technical human endeavor as the allocation class in real power >>>>>>>> we >>>>>>>> can't vote out. We could change a lot if we weren't so naff about >>>>>>>> this. >>>>>>>> Anyone here even think about it? >>>>>>>> >>>>>>>> In terms of data, what we chatter about, changes as data if we are >>>>>>>> not actually interested in large-scale human change. >>>>>>>> >>>>>>> -- >>>>>>> >>>>>>> --- >>>>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, >>>>>>> send an email to [email protected]. >>>>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>>>> >>>>>> >>>>>> -- >>>>> >>>>> --- >>>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>>>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>>>> an email to [email protected]. >>>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>> >>> --- >>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google >>> Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. >>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send >>> an email to [email protected]. >>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. >>> >> >> > -- > > --- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > ""Minds Eye"" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to [email protected]. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. > -- --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups ""Minds Eye"" group. 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