First of all technician is a general term that can apply to anything, I believe you are using it to mean coder?
I think your split is problematic. In fact it was Computer Scientists who created most of the things you are talking about including the first programming languages. Three examples are the creators of Unix and C https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ken_Thompson https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_Ritchie https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brian_Kernighan (Canadian) Engineers were not involved in early computer programming it was mostly mathematicians. Then in the post war 50s-80s it was Computer Scientists, not engineers. Engineers were mostly concerned with the physical creation of things, including computers, computer scientists with the design of computers and programming languages and algorithms. One of the problems is that engineers want to use the term engineering to describe the creation of code and algorithms. Those things have been the domain of Computer Scientists and often self taught people in the past because it is such a new discipline. To say that engineers are creating new algorithms and languages etc and Computer Scientists use "existing building blocks" is incorrect. In fact it is the other way around. The ability to create something new in CS really has more to do with the depth of your experience education and research than which field you proscribe to. One of my university courses involved creating a language and writing a compiler for it, this was in Computer Science. Engineering as a discipline has been around for a long time, so they have organizational structures, CS is newer and less constrained, the Order of Engineers is trying to constrain it, for good or bad, I am unsure which. As for the Order of Engineers code of ethics, how well has that worked for the Civil Engineers (Charbonneau commission) and SNC Lavalin & super hospital etc? On Wed, Oct 21, 2015 at 9:03 PM, Yves Legault <[email protected]> wrote: > Engineers are expected to lead projects of sometime very large scale. > Therefore, the project management side including accounting and other > related matters are far more advanced within their curriculum. > Being an experienced electronic technician, I know I can discuss with an > engineer up to a certain point, but there are things I do not know... And I > generally have the capability to understand them when explained. > > I have always seen engineers to be more knowledgeable in theoretical work > and management functions. > I have always seen technicians to be more knowledgeable in practical work > and day to day operation. > > This does not prevent one to excel in the other's realm, although, I > understand this to be an exception. > However, we do have technologists that do bridge the gap between technicians > and engineers. > > In regard to the software field of activity, It must be clear that the so > called "computer science" is a very young science. > Many do regard Babage's Analytical Engine as being probably the first > programmable computer, as demonstrated by Lovelace in 1843. > > I understand that "computer science" should include both hardware and > software sides in his definition. > For hardware, there are engineers that work at developing chips that are > more and more powerful and faster bits cruncher. > For software, there are engineers that work at developing languages that are > more and more powerful and easier at realizing programmer's will. > > I may be out in the field, But my current opinion is the following: > > - For a person to create a programming language, having an engineer's degree > should be considered very helpful. Knowledge of algorithms and advanced > mathematics is definitely a plus. > - For a person to program tasks in any computer language, an engineer degree > should be considered optional. One has to keep in mind that the task to be > program might very well have been defined by an engineer. > > How about someone defining a new sorting algorithm in C or Pascal? This is > awfully close to an engineer field of work. > How about someone doing coding according to predefined requirements? This is > awfully close to a technician's field of work. > It is quite hard to make a line in the sand and state that neither > technicians nor engineers can cross it. > > Now... What if the act of creation is reserved to engineers? > If writing software is an act of creation, then anyone writing a piece of > software is an engineer. > Personally, creating a new programming language should be considered > engineering work. > Creating a piece of software using an existing programming language should > be considered technical work. > > Generally speaking, engineers are expected to be able to start doing their > work on a white page. > > Generally speaking, technicians are expected to use documentation, > schematics and tools in order to get things done. > This is what I call "using existing building blocks". > It is true that, from time to time, they too can create something new out of > assembling those block in an way that was not foreseen by the engineers. > So it is also with programmers.They too are "using existing blocks". That > does not turn programmers into engineers! > > Well, in the end, it seems it is the social responsibility that can be > bestowed on someone that makes him an engineer or a technician. > And that ability is generally recognized by a certificate, a diploma or a > degree. > It is called social recognition. > > For an engineer, there is an "oath" or two attached with the practice of > their profession. > There is no such thing for a technician. > I currently do not know if there is an oath for a technologist. > > YLL > > > Le mercredi 21 octobre 2015 à 12:00 -0400, [email protected] a > écrit : > > Send mlug mailing list submissions to > [email protected] > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > https://listes.koumbit.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-listserv.mlug.ca > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > [email protected] > > You can reach the person managing the list at > [email protected] > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of mlug digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Software engineering and politics (was: North America > Fedora LUG) (Patricia Campbell) > 2. Re: Software engineering and politics (was: North America > Fedora LUG) (Nelson Asinowski) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 16:49:41 -0400 > From: Patricia Campbell <[email protected]> > To: Montreal Linux Users Group <[email protected]> > Subject: Re: [MLUG] Software engineering and politics (was: North > America Fedora LUG) > Message-ID: > <cagwhzbh-fpo4qfvw5tnfbxrh7nlvan9nau+_qsj_fb7ao9z...@mail.gmail.com> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > They are two different disciplines. Engineering has been trying to > coop Computer Science for ages. Often job titles for developers use > the title Software Engineer but don't require an engineering degree. > > I am not sure where this "fight" will go but I am not sure how they > will gain more influence. Right now there are not enough people to > fill the ICT jobs. The universities will not close down their > Computer Science departments. > > A software engineering degree tends to focus more on planning and > management than do pure CS degrees. > > Anyone else have thoughts on this ? > > > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2015 at 8:57 AM, Stefan Monnier > <[email protected]> wrote: >>> CGI), and two large technical parks dedicated to software engineering. >>> ETS is a university dedicated to software Engineering. >> >> Just to clarify: the Quebec Order of Engineers (a professional >> association with a lot of money and political clout) wants to take >> control of everything that has to do with IT or CS in Quebec (so as to >> gain yet more influence). >> >> For that reason, they try and convince everyone that all of IT and CS >> falls within the scope of "software engineering". >> >> In most of the rest of the world, software engineering is just one >> sub-field of computer science. >> >> >> Stefan >> _______________________________________________ >> mlug mailing list >> [email protected] >> https://listes.koumbit.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-listserv.mlug.ca > > > > > > _______________________________________________ > mlug mailing list > [email protected] > https://listes.koumbit.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-listserv.mlug.ca > -- ___..___........__.......__ ...|....|__/....|...|......|...|__| ...|....|.....\...|...|__..|...|....| "You must be the change you wish to see in the world." Mohandas K Gandhi _______________________________________________ mlug mailing list [email protected] https://listes.koumbit.net/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/mlug-listserv.mlug.ca
