> [Ham previously said]:
> > I don't see anything "pragmatic" about the MoQ
> [SA previously]:
> > Any of these ring a bell? Brujo, motorcycle
> > riding and maintenance, sailboating, dancing,
> > classroom education, meditation, houses on a river
> > (reminds me of Hawthorne's "House of Seven
> Gables", a certain housestyle, the carpenters, the
planning,
> the people that live in the houses, etc...)
[Ham]
> My understanding of "pragmatic" has to do with
> problem-solving in everyday
> life. Explaining how to repair a motorcyle is
> pragmatic, I'll give you
> that.
ok
[Ham]
> As for the Brujo episode,
How a whole society was able to evolve in the
face of another more seemingly powerful society - via
brujo. He fixed it for 'em.
[Ham]
> sailboating,
I've never sailboated, but the pilgrims did and
currently it is a very good experience that helps one
cope with the busy life of current society from what I
hear. It fixes. Yes, I'm being very simplistic, but
why make it complex.
[Ham]
> meditation,
Again, coping with society. Sitting on the front
or back porch, relaxing... by a stream, on a park
bench in a town, etc... Meditation is plainly
focusing and being attentive to that very act. Do you
focus?
[Ham]
> and houses on a river,
With carpenters, families, a whole story that is
not only historic but contemporary. Houses are not
only shelters, but a view of how people not only
perceive their lifestyle, but also their relation to
their world is pragmatically sheltered in a house,
when people visit and depending on ones lifestyle or
business nature houses are 'players' in the way people
live. Some are just four sides with a roof and floor
- like Thoreau, just to get the most fundamental usage
in the heart of the woods during four seasons. Houses
have sinks or no sinks. Restrooms or not, etc... all
depending on where you live. Houses say a lot about
the people in relation to the house, but also about
the world were those people live. Air conditioner in
northern Alaska? Then there's Fen shui (spelling?) or
how one arranges ones house on a hillside or the
interior decorating. Is the house helpful in
stimulating thought or the house cluttered and in a
noisy neighborhood? Does it matter if the house is
cluttered or not or noisy or not? That speaks volumes
about the people, but their worldview is involved. I
would love a log cabin, but I'm a log cabin kind of
person. The way I'd like to see the world each day
and night with wood surrounding me is a world worth
paying for... woods anybody.
[Ham]
> these are either descriptive reflections on
> life or analogies used by
> the author to illustrate his brand of morality
> (non-pragmatic).
How a house is not pragmatic, or a sailboat
experience or focusing, you've really painted a unique
picture of life to say the least.
[Ham]
> I don't know what "planning" refers to in Pirsig's
novels,
Victorian age viewed the world in such a planned
out way that houses were big and Phadrues saw nobody
in the yard. The house is big, I'd say, to accompany
many hours inside, many needs inside the house.
Nothing wrong with this, just a worldview.
[Ham]
> and "carpenters" doesn't ring any bells.
Who pragmatically built these houses? Why did
they do it? For $ surely, and probably big $ for big
houses by these social big people who popularly
advocated their big intellectual ways were right.
> [Ham, previously to Ian]:
> > If they are not testable (i.e., empirically
> confirmable), they remain hypotheses.
>
> [SA previously]:
> > Hypotheses based on faith since they are not yet
> > testable, but believed to have value, thus, still
> > lurking, which goes for all hypothesis that are
> not yet tested and the underlying philosophy in what
a
> > hypothesis is (cause/effect or value-based),
> etc...
[Ham]
> A true scientist will "test" his beliefs before
> extolling the value of
> something he hasn't proven.
Oh, those hypothesis ARE worth testing, taking
the time, and using the $ to do so. Thomas Kuhns book
is enlightening on this.
[Ham]
> In other words, he or she doesn't operate on
> "faith".
Lots of $ for something that might not pan
through.
[Ham]
> That's why I say that faith is an inappropriate term
that doesn't
> apply to the scientific method.
That's YOUR view.
[Ham]
> It's an arguable point in Philosophy.
yes
[Ham]
> My personal view is that there's a difference
between
> the conviction of one's
> belief and faith as an obligation to some
> authoritative commandment or
> dogma.
ok.
[Ham]
> Generally speaking, a philosopher should be able to
> support his beliefs with
> a logical ontology.
Who says what is more logical than another?
[Ham]
> Failing this, the philosophy is
> little more than
> poetry, homily, or an expression of personal
> opinion.
Sure. Failing philosophy to live in the real
world is to put philosophy in Disney World.
[Ham]
> I put Ralph Waldo Emerson, Henry David Thorough, and
Walt
> Whitman in the category of
> "philosopher-poets". They are fine writers, all,
> and you'll gain much
> insight on life from reading them; but they're not
> true philosophers, any
> more than Shakespeare was.
That's your view.
[Ham]
> I see RMP as sort of straddling the fence -- a
> competent writer, story-teller, and observer of
> society from a philosophic
> perspective, less competent as a theorist, logician,
> or metaphysicist.
> (Kindly note that I've qualified this as my personal
> appraisal. The
> measure of success in this world is, of course,
> determined by public
> acceptance.)
Public? Logic? How so many philosophers argue
what philosophy is. Your essence is different from an
essence given hundreds of years ago. Things Change.
Logic Changes. Public changes. No firm, absolute
ground it seems.
four seasons,
SA
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