Hi Platt, and greetings Joe -- [Platt asks]: > How far down the scale of being would you say one > can reasonably assign "feelings".
What is the "scale of being"? Did Protagoras not say that "Man is the measure of all things"? If he was right, then all scales, all levels, all morality, all parsing of finitude is a construct of human intellection. If Sir William Hamilton was right, "consciousness lies at the root of all knowledge." Donald Hoffman, whom you introduced to me, also said: ""I believe that consciousness and its contents are all that exists." [Platt]: > Does a quantum particle feel like making itself known > to a human observer, or remain hidden? Does a hydrogen > atom feel something happens when it combines with oxygen > to make water? Do molecules in the immune system feel > the presence of an invader? Does a lowly virus feel the > conditions in which it can multiply? ... My answer is No to all of these perceptions. If experience is that which is consciously perceived in space/time, and all knowledge is derived from this perception, then whatever value we assign to a phenomenon can be no more than the value of the perceiver. In other words, what we experience is Value differentiated by organic sensiblity and objectivized by the intellect into the things and events that occur in an evolving universe. [Platt]: > If an entity must be a living entity in order to possess > sentience, how do you reconcile that sentient life > consists exclusively of non-sentient elements? > Finally, can an entity feel values without being cognizant? Remember that consciousness is proprietary "apprehension", or what I call being-aware. All sentent beings are organic, and I don't know any elements--organic or inorganic--that are sentient in nature. One reason that consciousness is indefinable is that it can't be localized in nature; it has no empirical existence. You'd like me to substantiate animism because it supports Pirsig's Quality thesis, but I won't oblige you. The teleology of the universe--it's design, meaning and purpose--is bound up in the primary source which, unlike Pirsig's Quality, is non-relational. [Platt]: > Does the beginning of "cognizance" mean the > beginning of self-awareness? Yes. Also, the beginning of value-sensibility. We perceive the emergence of the individual as a neurophysical process in time starting at conception. Since the only aspects of a new life that we can observe are the fetus and its behavior, we reason that individual subjectivity is a biological phenomenon. But, as Sir William said, it's the "root of knowledge" -- the psychic core of awareness. [Ham, previously]: > Conception is "idealized" perception. > Intellection is "reasoned" perception. > Observation is "investigative" perception. > Intuition is inductive or theorized intellection. [Platt]: > Am I correct to assume these four attributes are > restricted to humans? In my opinion, yes. [Joe]: > Ham, if I apply your ontology to ?consciousness' > correct me if I misunderstand. It seems "essence" is > "a level of awareness". "Nothingness" seems to be "I am empty". > "Existence" seems to be "consciousness". > IMO the MOQ agrees that "Consciousness cannot be > defined" in that it is the "social level" of undefined MOQ-DQ. You've been brainwashed by Pirsig. Forget "levels", and start thinking of sources. Essence is the ultimate source -- absolute, undivided, immutable. Any thing, person, thought or feeling is a reduction of Essence. It's illusory because it's infiltrated with nothingness, that which Essence is not. The egotistical 'I' of selfness and the 'being' of otherness are two of the illusions. The real self is value-sensibility because it is primary to experience and is the source of the (self/other) dichotomy we call existence. [Joe]: > In the record of evolution IMO "hominid" evolves to > "homo sapiens" and the clue are the cave paintings on the > wall describing "the other" outside of me. Interesting, but I don't understand the relevance. [Joe]: > If I am empty and you are empty, IMO our relationship leads > to a further evolution of "law" which is the undefined > "intellectual level" MOQ-DQ. As an anology, I would say that you and I are each "half-empty". The subjective half of both of us is a non-entity that subsists on an otherness that we perceive as being. Or, more simply, every human being is separated from his/her essential source (by nothingness). We all seek to regain this Essence because of its value to us, but because we cannot experience Essence directly, we are driven by its value relative to us. I don't know what you mean by "evolution of law", unless you have Teleology in mind. For me, Intellect is not a level; it's the ability to reason from cognitive perception. Thanks to both of you. Regards, Ham Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
