Might try and untangle (or re-tangle) this. The past exists as crystallised memories of potentialities realised in awareness, "the future" exists as the anticipation of potentialities as yet unrealised. Both are derivatives of awareness. A rock's simple memory has it that it has been around for several million years, and my perception of that rock makes it (the rock) part of my awareness and therefore part of what "I" am.
Cogito ergo sum: I think the rock has been here for a million years therefore I am. Its us that can't be independent of history, not the other way around. Neither one "causes" the other though, both are just parts of the pattern. > -----Original Message----- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Behalf Of Ham Priday > Sent: 30 August 2007 08:55 > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: [MD] subject / object logic > > > > Hi Craig, Platt, and welcome back Micah -- > > > [Craig says to Micah]: > > I don't see the past as a "human mental concept". The > concept of the past > > might be a human mental concept, but not the past itself. > Nor do I see > > the > > past as existing. Whatever existed in the past might not exist now. > > [Micah responds]: > > Isn't the above contradictory? You don't see the past as > existing, but the > > "past itself" (implying existence) is not a concept? > > [Craig]: > > I don't see this as one of my premises. Some aspects of > time might be > > independent of man ("Time and tide wait for no man"); some > aspects might > > not be. We know in what way time is independent of man in > the same way > > we know in what way it isn't. > > [Micah]: > > Again, contradictory. We know time exists with man, we do > not know what > > exists without man. Knowing implies man. > > [Platt]: > > The existence of time is undeniable by anyone born of a woman. > > Micah almost always has a valid point, but in his own inimitable way, > conceals the reasoning behind it. This can be very frustrating. > > By way of clarification, let me suggest that "what exists" is "the > appearance of phenomena" in time and space. In order for > appearance to > exist, there must be a subject (the perceiver or knower) and > an object (the > phenomena manifested in appearance). Micah is right that "we > do not know > what exists without man". Knowledge is man's understanding > of phenomena as > it "appears" to him. Since time and space are the perceived > dimensions of > appearance, what is manifested now is intellectualized as the > point of a > continuum that has a "past" and a "future" associated with it. Such > intellection also infers that what happens today will affect > what happens > tomorrow and, also, that what happened at some point called > "the beginning" > has affected what we experience now. This is the law of > cause-and-effect > upon which scientific empiricism is based. > > Difference begins with two, and I think it is metaphysically > significant > that the parameters of existence, like the extremes of morality, are > dualistic. Consider the fact that we have a subject looking > at an object > in.two dimensions. Time is viewed as running from past to > future. Space is > seen as extending from here to there. Life is a birth to > death experience. > Value is a measure of goodness or badness, pleasure or pain, > magnificence or > triteness, love or cruelty, brightness or darkness, strength > or weakness, > etc., etc. In a real sense, man stands at the focal center > of a polarized > universe and "is the measure all things", as I thanked Micah > for quoting > Pythagoras some time ago. > > In fact, the only phenomenon that doesn't really fit our > definition of an > "existent" is the individual subject. We know him or her as > an identifiable > organism, of course, but we don't know his or her > subjectivity. We can't > measure it, localize it, or experience it. Descartes > concluded: "I think, > therefore I am." But was that proof of his existence? > > So perhaps, instead of asking "Does time exist?" we should > start by asking > "Do WE exist?" > > (Just a thought in passing.) > > Regards to all, > Ham > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > > This email was received from the INTERNET and scanned by the > Government Secure Intranet Anti-Virus service supplied by > Cable&Wireless in partnership with MessageLabs. (CCTM > Certificate Number 2006/04/0007.) In case of problems, please > call your organisations IT Helpdesk. > Communications via the GSi may be automatically logged, > monitored and/or recorded for legal purposes. > > > This e-mail (and any attachment) is intended only for the > attention of the addressee(s). 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