Hi Bo, the clarity is useful ... (1) I may indeed have once referred to "GOF SOM as 4th Level", but I'm guessing that would only have been in a hypothetical sense in discussion with you .... ie if we see GOF SOM as the 4th / intellectual level, where can more enlightened intellect reside ? I'm pretty flexible about the answer ... either there are 5th (and possible 6th and 7th levels) for different kinds of intellect, OR GOF Intellect (SOM) can only be a part of the intellectual level. OR There are other enlightened forms of SOMism, other than GOF SOMism whereby, although the subject necessarily sees a world in terms of SO models, the subject is enlightened enough to recognise and discount the privelidged view of its ego from its own ontological view of the world.
(2) What does SOM "pervade" ... OK, as of now, I see only a combined level 3/4 ... a cultural level combining Pirsig's social and intellectual. Level 1 is physics, Level 2 is biology (genetic reproduction), Level 3/4 is self-consciousness (memetic reproduction) - it's the "self" that creates SOM in the first place - a subject to contrast with objects. Social interaction of memes (minds communicating) is what determines what is intellectual / rational (or not). Freedom of thought (with all un-questioned points seen as "moral holidays" in Jamesian terms) at the enlightened end, biological / physical defence against the questioning of traditional points at the "social" end in Pirsigian terms. Rather than social / intellectual I'd see the two ends of the cultural spectrum as authroitarian and enlightened. (3) You said "The static levels are blind to the level context (not to quality though) the Q context is only seen from MOQ's meta-level ... If this is made into MOQ's 4th. level, it all turns haywire something that has truly happened" ?? You'll have to explain that to me in more examples .... it might change my view if I understood that ? Ian On 11/26/07, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ian, All > > 23 Nov. you said: > > > Bo it seems to me he's evading giving you the answer you want to hear, > > but is patently clear that he does NOT intend the 4th / intellectual > > level to be seen simply as SOM, not even historically. > > THAT much I have figured out ;-). > > > In fact he's confirming what several have been asserting on here ... > > that SOM pervades the social level too. > > Ditto! > > > The fact he avoids giving (in that letter) any clearer indication of > > what intellect actually is, suggests as DMB did recently that we > > "know" the social / intellectual differences (pragmatically) but > > really do not have any definitive distinction. (This is entirely > > consistent with my own preferred view ... but that's another story.) > > No level is defined, the first and second are self-evident. The 3rd. > may also look self-evident, but it has a MOQ particular MOQ > flavour and this flavour increases when it comes to the 4th. As > Pirsig says in the said letter: > > "... but not intellectual in the MOQ sense".. > > In "Lila's Child" (p.64) he says: " > > In LILA I never defined the intellectual level since > everyone who is up to reading LILA already knows what > intellectual means." > > But in the letter he refers to the early books of the Bible as > lacking intellectual value, thus reading books is no intellectual > criterion ..IN A MOQ SENSE!!! .. and this is plainly the S/O > SENSE!! Why did he not return Q-intellect its original and true > definition instead of ensnaring himself in the logical flaws of the > said letter? > > I'm not exactly asking you Ian, just venting my frustration. You > once referred to "GOF SOM" as the 4th. level. At first I thought > you thereby saw the 4th. level as the S/O distinction, but it was a > false hope. You still see SOM as just pervading intellect. WHAT > exactly does it pervade, without (in a P. fashion) answer > "intellect"? > > One more: The static levels are blind to the level context (not to > quality though) the Q context is only seen from MOQ's meta- > level. The 4th. level by itself is SOM and its "intellect" is the > subject - the mind - that peers out at the objective world. If this is > made into MOQ's 4th. level, it all turns haywire something that > has truly happened. > > Bo > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
