Hi Ian
26 Nov. you wrote:
> (1) I may indeed have once referred to "GOF SOM as 4th Level", but I'm
> guessing that would only have been in a hypothetical sense in
> discussion with you .... ie if we see GOF SOM as the 4th /
> intellectual level, where can more enlightened intellect reside ? I'm
> pretty flexible about the answer ... either there are 5th (and
> possible 6th and 7th levels) for different kinds of intellect, OR GOF
> Intellect (SOM) can only be a part of the intellectual level. OR There
> are other enlightened forms of SOMism, other than GOF SOMism whereby,
> although the subject necessarily sees a world in terms of SO models,
> the subject is enlightened enough to recognise and discount the
> privelidged view of its ego from its own ontological view of the
> world.
I need to come up for air after this deep-dive. The many
intellectual layers may spring from the impossible 4th. level that
LILA created: One that began as "song and dance" sometime in
paleolithic age and leaves the social level a tiny sliver between
biology and (this) intellect. If accepting the S/O intellect, all
puzzle pieces finds their place. The meta-level I speak about is
no static level - no level at al -, just the point from where the level
system is visible, particularly the 4th.
> (2) What does SOM "pervade" ... OK, as of now, I see only a combined
> level 3/4 ... a cultural level combining Pirsig's social and
> intellectual. Level 1 is physics, Level 2 is biology (genetic
> reproduction), Level 3/4 is self-consciousness (memetic reproduction)
> - it's the "self" that creates SOM in the first place - a subject to
> contrast with objects. Social interaction of memes (minds
> communicating) is what determines what is intellectual / rational (or
> not). Freedom of thought (with all un-questioned points seen as "moral
> holidays" in Jamesian terms) at the enlightened end, biological /
> physical defence against the questioning of traditional points at the
> "social" end in Pirsigian terms. Rather than social / intellectual I'd
> see the two ends of the cultural spectrum as authroitarian and
> enlightened.
Even more suffocating feeling. I see no need for 3-4 level, the
original lay-out is perfect. Particularly self-consciousness reveals
that you see the MOQ from SOM's premises. "Memes" and
Dawkins have to be jettisoned along with Darwin to get the
Quality idea which is better understood in the negative sense,
how the upper is a relief from the lower level's strictures.
Consciousness in the self sense is not part of the 3rd. level, this
only appears at the upper strata of the 4th. after the S/O screw
had turned for millennias. Self-consciousness has not created
SOM, it's the other way round..
> (3) You said "The static levels are blind to the level context (not to
> quality though) the Q context is only seen from MOQ's meta-level ...
> If this is made into MOQ's 4th. level, it all turns haywire something
> that has truly happened" ??
> You'll have to explain that to me in more examples .... it might
> change my view if I understood that ?
Examples? Above I accuse you of looking at the MOQ from SOM
which means applying the S/O template on to any level below
intellect. Self-awareness at the social level means cave-man
being aware of being a "caveman". In retrospect the Homeric
heroes are social age examples and what characterizes existence
at this level is just the lack of the subject/object (or more
sophisticated varieties of a self aware of self aware of ...etc.)
Achilles and Hector never stops to reflect on their actions or role,
they are totally immersed in emotions. Exactly what Pirsig meant
(had he been honest) by the old Bible books lacking intellectual
value i.e.SOM! The prophets fears (God) and hates (his enemies)
no self in the skeptic sense . But of course (if this is the issue)
they had names and knew their ancestors and their social
position. The latter was ALL, we see this attitude in the
contemporary Jihadists who identify with the common cause and
sacrifice themselves driven by intense hatred of Allah's enemies
which is the Western Values which is intellect-as-SOM which is
the intellect/society struggles new arena.
Enough
Bo
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