> > Ron:
> > Greetings Platt,
> > I would think Pirsig might be horrified that one could use his Moq
> > Just as freely as anyone else also.
> >
> > Put a tag on morals and you do just the same as the Nazis.
> [Platt}
> Greetings Ron,
> Sorry, I don't follow you. What "tag" are you referring to?
>
> [Ron]
> Names
[Platt]
Sorry, still don't get it. What names do you mean?
[Ron]
> > Morals are a function of evolution. You seem to imply the reification
> of
> > Cultural norms as being a universal truth.
>
> [Platt]
> Whose cultural norms are you referring to? There are almost as many
> cultural norms as there are cultures
>
> [Ron]
> Exactly, so "Good" can mean as many things as cultures to value it.
[Platt]
Disagree. According to the MOQ: "A culture that supports the dominance of
social values over biological values is an absolutely superior culture to
one that does not, and a culture that supports the dominance of
intellectual values over social values is absolutely superior to one that
does not." (Lila, 24)
[Ron]
> > The Nazi final solution was not embraced by all of the party, but,
> > The hierarchal structure and the consequence played a role
> > As well as the individuals faith in the hierarchy to determine
> > "what is best"
> [Platt]
> If you are referring to the hierarchy of the German society under the
> Nazis, I agree.
[Ron]
> > Example:
> > You support a president that favors war
> > Counter to cultural morals
> > Because of the belief in what's best
> > And the faith in the hierarchy.
> [Platt]
> Didn't most of those now opposed to the war support it at the beginning?
> Since when is war counter to cultural morals? Or the MOQ?
>
> [Ron]
> I'm talking general principle not specifics. Our culture in particular, the
> American flavor of western culture, is based in Christian ethic. Which
> Promotes pacifism and love thy enemy.
[Platt]
You couldn't tell that by our history, especially the war that created the
United States. Since then how many wars have we fought to preserve our
highly moral freedoms (freedom of speech, of the press, trial by jury,
etc.) and way of life?
[Ron]
> > You favor capitalism which is
> > Counter to Christian ethics and morals
> > Of charity to the poor.
> [Platt]
> Capitalism has done more to erase poverty than any other economic system in
> history. Doesn't the MOQ favor capitalism over socialism? Where in the MOQ
> do you find support for "turn the other cheek," "my brother's keeper" and
> other Christian ideals?
>
> [Ron}
> I would correct that statement by adding that capitalists have done much To
> erase poverty and promote public works, individuals with Christian Cultural
> ethic. Capitalism as an institution is the attainment of monetary Wealth
> through free trade. Nothing more. Jesus tells us to renounce Worldly
> possessions. As far as MoQ having any cultural ethic it only has what the
> individual Brings to it.
[Platt]
I agree with your emphasis on the individual which capitalism also
emphasizes by placing a high value on inventors, entrepreneurs and traders
in a free market.
[Ron]
> > Quality is not universal truth
> > Morality is not universal truth
> > Morals are a process not a truth.
> [Platt}
> Since in the MOQ Quality, morality and reality are all the same, I would
> conclude that -- to Pirsig at least -- Quality is about as close to
> universal truth as you can get.
>
> [Ron}
> Close but not it. For it is an individual experience. His Quality is not our
> Quality, Pirsigs Quality may only be known by Pirsig. He leads us to the
> path Of discovering our own quality.
[Platt]
Yes, but Quality is universal like life and atoms. Individuals will vary in
their judgments of quality in some respects, but not all. The breakthrough
Pirsig offers is a way to check one's individual judgments against a moral
reality rather than jump headlong into easy alternatives like a biological
"It must be OK because it feels so good."
[Ron]
> > Truth is a term used to define a relative level
> > Of certainty within a particular context as it
> > Applies to its use.
> [Platt]
> Agree except "as it applies to its use" (pragmatism). Some things are
> true
> that have no use at all.
> [Ron}
> You know, I was really giving this one some thought and I was
> Having a hell of a time coming up with something that was true
> That had no use for anyone. Still thinking...
[Platt]
How about the appendix?
[Ron]
> > Quality, morals, truth, and betterness
> > Do not exist outside the conditions which
> > Define them.
> > Pirsig uses the term Moral as a metaphor
> > For an evolutionary function of preference.
> > Not a culturally defined ideal of good.
> [Platt]
> Agree in general, but according to the MOQ hierarchy of morals, some
> cultures are better than others. "Cultures can be graded and judged
> morally according to their contribution to the evolution of life." (Lila,
> 24)
> {Ron]
> Ahh, judged by whom? By what criterion?
>
> I'd venture the answer by the individual themselves.
[Platt]
See Pirsig's criteria above. It is based on his metaphysics. I'm one
individual who agrees with the moral hierarchy of the MOQ. If every
individual's criteria is considered equally valid without regard to social
order, the result is anarchy. As Pirsig says, both Dynamic and static
values (freedom and order) are needed.
Best regards,
Platt
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