does the need to act and decide not create awareness? DM
----- Original Message ----- From: "Matt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Thursday, November 29, 2007 2:49 PM Subject: Re: [MD] The education of Peter Corteen > No, at least in the sense that it doesn't move. But does something require > action to be self-aware? I am unfamiliar (not in Socrates' sense) of > MoQ's > idea of self-awareness. > > On Nov 26, 2007 5:41 AM, David M <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > >> is a pencil active? >> >> DM >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: "Matt" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> To: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Sent: Monday, November 26, 2007 3:06 AM >> Subject: Re: [MD] The education of Peter Corteen >> >> >> > Is a pencil 'self-aware'? >> > >> > On Nov 25, 2007 7:34 AM, Akshay Peshwe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> > wrote: >> > >> >> [quote] >> >> > Do you think that a cat can think? >> >> >> >> "To think" carries tons of SOM. What you ask is really "are cats >> >> self-aware"? Cats are certainly INTELLIGENT but is neither part >> >> of the social nor of the intellectual levels, particularly the latter >> >> where the "self-awareness" term - not belong - but was >> >> CREATED. >> >> >> >> [/quote] >> >> >> >> Consciousness (or self-awareness) is nothing but Dynamic Quality, >> >> hence >> >> it >> >> is the very essence of all "things" while at the same time existing >> >> beyond >> >> it. We are spiritual beings tied to a mortal framework of body and >> mind. >> >> >> >> Akshay >> >> >> >> >> >> On 24/11/2007, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > Hi Peter >> >> > >> >> > On 23 Nov. you wrote: >> >> > >> >> > > on one hand your apparent unwavering confidence in your >> understanding >> >> > > of the MoQ is persuasive and makes me think I need to understand >> your >> >> > > point of view more; on the other hand in your posts your use of >> >> > > common >> >> > > words with your own specialised meaning, your poor phraseology, >> your >> >> > > sometimes patronising responses and that you frequently miss out >> >> > > conjunctions in your explanations and use unusual punctuation all >> do >> >> > > not help your cause. >> >> > >> >> > But English is not my first language. In the old days when there >> >> > were other Europeans around this site I used to find them easier >> >> > to understand than the "natives". But no sore feelings, I >> >> > appreciate your honesty. >> >> > >> >> > > It could be my weak brain that's the snag and if I were more >> familiar >> >> > > with ZAMM and LILA I would be able to decipher better what you >> mean; >> >> > > so I hope you don't take those comments too negatively, I say them >> in >> >> > > the hope that they can some how lead me to be able to understand >> you >> >> > > better. >> >> > >> >> > > I'm in the process of reading your SOLAQI update but in the >> meantime >> >> > > I'd like to ask you a couple of, for me, important questions: >> >> > >> >> > GOOD! >> >> > >> >> > > Do you think that a cat can think? >> >> > >> >> > "To think" carries tons of SOM. What you ask is really "are cats >> >> > self-aware"? Cats are certainly INTELLIGENT but is neither part >> >> > of the social nor of the intellectual levels, particularly the >> >> > latter >> >> > where the "self-awareness" term - not belong - but was >> >> > CREATED. >> >> > >> >> > If you can stand some more on "intelligence"? It is a biological >> >> > pattern by way of the neural complexity called brain that makes >> >> > higher organisms able to store former experience (Read and >> >> > Write memory) and retrieve it - play around with it in imaginary >> >> > scenarios - what makes them able to learn from experience >> >> > included seeing other perform an act. At the bio.(cat) level this >> >> > does not include a self or language, particularly not the internal >> >> > kind we call "thinking". As the social level rose on top of biology >> it >> >> > adopted this pattern and because the biological pattern which >> >> > spawned "society" were Homo Sapiens, brain and intelligence >> >> > were enormous. If language was part of the social level from the >> >> > start or developed is a big question, the Neanderthals certainly >> >> > lived in family and tribal groups, but did not have language. >> >> > Anyway, with language came the silent form called "thinking", so >> >> > did names and a group identity that transcended the animal >> >> > range. Kingdoms and other "doms" arose. (this is a leap of tens >> >> > of thousands of years course) I find this passage from ZAMM >> >> > catching this reality so well. >> >> > >> >> > One must first get over the idea that the time span >> >> > between the last caveman and the first Greek >> >> > philosophers was short. The absence of any history for >> >> > this period sometimes gives this illusion. But before the >> >> > Greek philosophers arrived on the scene, for a period of >> >> > at least five times all our recorded history since the Greek >> >> > philosophers, there existed civilizations in an advanced >> >> > state of development. They had villages and cities, >> >> > vehicles, houses, marketplaces, bounded fields, >> >> > agricultural implements and domestic 381 animals, and >> >> > led a life quite as rich and varied as that in most rural >> >> > areas of the world today. And like people in those areas >> >> > today they saw no reason to write it all down, or if they >> >> > did, they wrote it on materials that have never been >> >> > found. Thus we know nothing about them. The ``Dark >> >> > Ages'' were merely the resumption of a natural way of life >> >> > that had been momentarily interrupted by the Greeks. >> >> > >> >> > This also shows that - to Phaedrus - "The Greeks" are the pivot >> >> > point that changed everything , in ZAMM they meant the coming >> >> > of SOM, in LILA it ought to have been the emergence of 4th. >> >> > level. But more on INTELLECT in another post. >> >> > >> >> > > Do you think quality can manifest itself in any way without the >> >> > > inorganic? >> >> > >> >> > The quick answer is "no", but it requires some explanation. At >> >> > first Pirsig put great emphasize on a QUALITY outside the MOQ >> >> > (that creates an infinite regress) He later "recanted" and said that >> >> > the Quality he speaks about in ZAMM is the DQ of the MOQ. In >> >> > that case the basic postulate is Reality=DQ/SQ (which isn't >> >> > different from the Reality=Quality in any other respect than >> >> > removing the Quality outside/ahead of the MOQ) thus Quality's >> >> > first manifestation was/is the inorganic level. >> >> > >> >> > Everything in my opinion of course, but I can't add this at the end >> >> > of each sentence. >> >> > >> >> > Bo >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> > Archives: >> >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> > >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> >> Archives: >> >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> > -- >> > "The only thing that separates us from the animals is...well, the truth >> is >> > nothing separates us from the animals." >> > Moq_Discuss mailing list >> > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> > Archives: >> > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > >> >> >> Moq_Discuss mailing list >> Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >> Archives: >> http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >> http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ >> > > > > -- > "The only thing that separates us from the animals is...well, the truth is > nothing separates us from the animals." > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
