Steve said to Marsha: ...I am saying that SOM is an intellectual pattern and my concern was whether you are seeing SOM as a social pattern as well as an intellectual pattern which would suggest to me what I think would be a misunderstanding of what social patterns are.
dmb butts in: Since the "M" in "SOM" stands for metaphysics I think we have say categorize it as intellectual, but it seems that it has roots in the social level in at least two important ways. The first is the structure of the language, one that evolved long before philosophy came along. The second has to do with the subjective self. That "mental substance", as Descartes called it. This cartesian subjective self is the modern version of the soul. Its a secularized version of a religious idea, one that asserts the existence of a supernatural and eternal entity. We can reject this cartesian self without also rejecting the idea of symbol manipulation, the use of abstractions or otherwise deny our intellectual capacities, which is what Bo seems to do. Steve said: ...I don't see a social aspect to mind though intellectual patterns are culturally constructed. Pirsig defines culture as social and intellectual patterns. ...intellectual patterns are indeed learned within a culture but that doesn't make them social patterns. These are still intellectual glasses not social glasses. dmb butts in some more: It seems to me that the 4th level always has the 3rd inherently. We're first taught to speak the language of the culture into which we are born and only after that has been absorbed and developed can we begin to exercise our intellectual capacities. The language and the culture gives us the concepts and thought categories that we'll eventually be able to manipulate skillfully rather than simply use conventionally. _________________________________________________________________ Get the power of Windows + Web with the new Windows Live. http://www.windowslive.com?ocid=TXT_TAGHM_Wave2_powerofwindows_122007 Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
