Bo, To say the quote came from Lila is not enough.
I have an ebook version, and when I do a search on your quote I cannot find it. I've tried variations, and still cannot find it. If my ebook version is incorrect, I'd like to know. If you quote is wrong, I'd like to know. I would also like to read the context from which you lifted the quote. It's was not even a full sentence quote. On the MOQ, RMP's words carry a great weight, and so if you're going to use a direct quote, you should reference at least the chapter from which it came. The quote was, "(as Pirsig says "all patterns are contained inside the intellectual level)". It came from your 12/22/2007, 04:29AM What is SOM? post. Marsha At 12:30 PM 12/23/2007, you wrote: >Hi Marsha > >On 22 December you wrote: > > > >At 04:29 AM 12/22/2007, Bo wrote: > > > > >Turn it around to better understand. The levels are results of > > > >dynamic efforts to free existence from the strictures of the former > > > >level, thus all patterns of the lower level exists inside the > > > >upper. (as Pirsig says "all patterns are contained inside the > > > >intellectual level) For example, USA is an intellect-dominated > > > >culture, but when the "bells toll" (Sep.11 f.ex.) the social values > > > >of patriotism, willingness to sacrifice, duty ...etc. emerges, but > > > >when the dust settles the superior intellect returnes and take > > > >charge. > > > Greetings again Bo, I found this in RMP's letter to Paul 09/2003: > > "When getting into a definition of the intellectual level much > clarity can be gained by recognizing a parallel with the lower > levels. Just as every biological pattern is also inorganic, but not > all inorganic patterns are biological; and just as every social > level is also biological, although not all biological patterns are > social; so every intellectual pattern is social although not all > social patterns are intellectual. Handshaking, ballroom > dancing, raising one's right hand to take an oath, tipping one's > hat to the ladies, saying "Gesundheit !" after a sneeze-there > are trillions of social customs that have no intellectual > component. Intellectuality occurs when these customs as well > as biological and inorganic patterns are designated with a sign > that stands for them and these signs are manipulated > independently of the patterns they stand for. "Intellect" can > then be defined very loosely as the level of independently > manipulable signs. Grammar, logic and mathematics can be > described as the rules of this sign manipulation." > >(I like to keep the master's voice apart) > > > It sounds like RMP is saying that inorganic patterns, biological > > patterns & social patterns are contained within the Intellectual > > Level, but are represented as "a sign that stands for them". > > > I still like to know where your quote is coming from??? > > >My quote is from LILA and it meant that the 4th level is on top of the >3rd, which is on top of the second ...etc. so in a sense the 4th >"contains" all levels. But this message from you set me thinking. >Perhaps is it the very LILA quote Pirsig refers to in the said letter. Still >it's a misleading thing to say that: > > "Just as every biological pattern is also inorganic, but not all > inorganic patterns are biological"; > >The biological level rises from - has its roots in - the inorganic level, >that's MOQ dogma, but biological VALUE isn't also inorganic VALUE. >the former is what defies the latter. Thus the conclusion of > > "So every intellectual pattern is social although not all social > patterns are intellectual." > >Isn't valid. Not one single intellectual pattern is social, but >intellect is on >top of the social level and thus social patterns live on, such as his >most innocent examples while more serious ones such as killing the >ones who offends one's family honour (like people from social-value- >steeped cultures do. They kill daughters who marries the wrong man) >is suppressed by intellectual value. > >So Pirsig's definition of intellect: > > Intellectuality occurs when these customs as well as biological > and inorganic patterns are designated with a sign that stands > for them and these signs are manipulated independently of the > patterns they stand for. "Intellect" can then be defined very > loosely as the level of independently manipulable signs. > Grammar, logic and mathematics can be described as the > rules of this sign manipulation." > >Is flawed because the premises are flawed. Stone age humankind >surely had names for biological and inorganic patterns (my stomach >hurst. This is a stone) without any "intellectuality" occurred. > >Bo > > >Moq_Discuss mailing list >Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. >http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org >Archives: >http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ >http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
