Hi Marsha
On 22 December you wrote:
> >At 04:29 AM 12/22/2007, Bo wrote:
> > >Turn it around to better understand. The levels are results of
> > >dynamic efforts to free existence from the strictures of the former
> > >level, thus all patterns of the lower level exists inside the
> > >upper. (as Pirsig says "all patterns are contained inside the
> > >intellectual level) For example, USA is an intellect-dominated
> > >culture, but when the "bells toll" (Sep.11 f.ex.) the social values
> > >of patriotism, willingness to sacrifice, duty ...etc. emerges, but
> > >when the dust settles the superior intellect returnes and take
> > >charge.
> Greetings again Bo, I found this in RMP's letter to Paul 09/2003:
"When getting into a definition of the intellectual level much
clarity can be gained by recognizing a parallel with the lower
levels. Just as every biological pattern is also inorganic, but not
all inorganic patterns are biological; and just as every social
level is also biological, although not all biological patterns are
social; so every intellectual pattern is social although not all
social patterns are intellectual. Handshaking, ballroom
dancing, raising one's right hand to take an oath, tipping one's
hat to the ladies, saying "Gesundheit !" after a sneeze-there
are trillions of social customs that have no intellectual
component. Intellectuality occurs when these customs as well
as biological and inorganic patterns are designated with a sign
that stands for them and these signs are manipulated
independently of the patterns they stand for. "Intellect" can
then be defined very loosely as the level of independently
manipulable signs. Grammar, logic and mathematics can be
described as the rules of this sign manipulation."
(I like to keep the master's voice apart)
> It sounds like RMP is saying that inorganic patterns, biological
> patterns & social patterns are contained within the Intellectual
> Level, but are represented as "a sign that stands for them".
> I still like to know where your quote is coming from???
My quote is from LILA and it meant that the 4th level is on top of the
3rd, which is on top of the second ...etc. so in a sense the 4th
"contains" all levels. But this message from you set me thinking.
Perhaps is it the very LILA quote Pirsig refers to in the said letter. Still
it's a misleading thing to say that:
"Just as every biological pattern is also inorganic, but not all
inorganic patterns are biological";
The biological level rises from - has its roots in - the inorganic level,
that's MOQ dogma, but biological VALUE isn't also inorganic VALUE.
the former is what defies the latter. Thus the conclusion of
"So every intellectual pattern is social although not all social
patterns are intellectual."
Isn't valid. Not one single intellectual pattern is social, but intellect is on
top of the social level and thus social patterns live on, such as his
most innocent examples while more serious ones such as killing the
ones who offends one's family honour (like people from social-value-
steeped cultures do. They kill daughters who marries the wrong man)
is suppressed by intellectual value.
So Pirsig's definition of intellect:
Intellectuality occurs when these customs as well as biological
and inorganic patterns are designated with a sign that stands
for them and these signs are manipulated independently of the
patterns they stand for. "Intellect" can then be defined very
loosely as the level of independently manipulable signs.
Grammar, logic and mathematics can be described as the
rules of this sign manipulation."
Is flawed because the premises are flawed. Stone age humankind
surely had names for biological and inorganic patterns (my stomach
hurst. This is a stone) without any "intellectuality" occurred.
Bo
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
