Ron, Ian and all Moqtalk.
2 January Ron referred to my query what "culture" is in a a MOQ
context?
> > To start from rock bottom, what we
> > call matter - including the forces that govern it - are Inorganic
> > (patterns of value) All living things are Biological POV and all human
> > communities are Social POV but are all cultures intellectual POV?
> Ron:
> It has been posited that culture is what defines human beings. How
> does one intellectualize but by the cultural paradigm? Deprive a human
> being of Cultural contact (which would be to deprive them of any human
> contact) could they intellectualize? I would conclude that all
> cultures create the environment or set the stage for intellection by
> creating a common frame of understanding through symbol definitions.
> It seems to me an issue of Complexity, a statement more of what we
> recognize as intellectual by Virtue of our own cultural understanding
> of the term.
Here Ron uses "culture" in a social (value) meaning and it surely
creates a greater social frame, symbols and definitions, like the
Muslim culture where the Koran is the common frame understood
from Morocco to Indonesia. But this is is NOT an intellectual
value culture. The Western culture on the other hand is and its
symbols are all milestones of intellect's struggle with social value.
The Galileo affair, Magna Charta , Habeas Corpus,
Enlightenment, the American and French Revolutions, the
American Civil war, the (at least) Second WW
I agree with much of what Ron says, but he tends to use
"intellectualize" in the somish - thinking- sense. The 4th level
DOES believe that the individual is more than society and can
survive deprived of social contact. This belief may be wrong in a
MOQ context (there is no 4th. level without a working 3rd. level)
yet valuable as a static value* the highest such.
*) A social-cuture-raised individual will succumb if deprived of
social contact, while an intellect-culture-raised individual may
survive even if marooned. There are many examples of this, but
it will take too long.
> Ron:
> Quite correct per my understanding, culture is social. It is not an
> intellectual pattern per say, but the creator of intellectual
> patterns, Or the environment in which intellectual patterns emerge.
> What really seems To define an intellectual culture is it's value of
> the individual.
Good, hope you remember this at the next crossroad ;-)
-------------
Ian wrote (2 Jan.)
> Bo asked What is culture ? I say "Culture" is the sum total of the
> Social & Intellectual levels. "A" culture is one pattern across those
> two levels. Ian
The culture term is a "jack of all trades" we even speak about
biological cultures (bacteria, yeast ..etc) and does not match what
the MOQ calls the intellectual level, usually it merely indicates an
enlarged social entity, thus I would drop the intellectual part
here. There are no MOQ patterns across two levels, but lots of
words that straddles many levels.
The reason for what may look as a blunder (that of all cultures
having an immune system) is that "culture" along with "society"
don't always match the MOQ use. A country or state may be
intellect-value-steeped as can a culture be social-value-steeped.
Yet, Pirsig is correct, all levels have their immune systems, and
he is also right that the psychiatry is intellect's and as we know,
the social cultures has no such system, most deviations from
social norms are treated as "crime" (in quotation marks because
not all societies have police and/or the term crime) and
individuals that the western world would deem mentally ill are just
killed or jailed.
IMO
Bo
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
