Bo, not much to disagree with other that the base point about what intellectal is ... (in my definition culture has a strong influence on what is considered intellectual - in yours it doesn't - back to square one)
Ignoring that for now ... you said "There are no MOQ patterns across two levels, but lots of words that straddles many levels." If you wish - we are just playing definitional games with what we mean by patterns and the words we use for them. Patterns in one level arise-from / interact-with / influence patterns in other levels - an identifiable interacting set of patterns could be thought of as another pattern, but no matter, practically. We eventually run out of distinct words. The immune systems are not fail-safe / hard-and-fast, just mechanistic tendencies that provide the static latching of the levels and PoV's. Forces in adjacent levels can always overcome them (at a price). Ian On 1/3/08, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Ron, Ian and all Moqtalk. > > 2 January Ron referred to my query what "culture" is in a a MOQ > context? > > > > To start from rock bottom, what we > > > call matter - including the forces that govern it - are Inorganic > > > (patterns of value) All living things are Biological POV and all human > > > communities are Social POV but are all cultures intellectual POV? > > > Ron: > > It has been posited that culture is what defines human beings. How > > does one intellectualize but by the cultural paradigm? Deprive a human > > being of Cultural contact (which would be to deprive them of any human > > contact) could they intellectualize? I would conclude that all > > cultures create the environment or set the stage for intellection by > > creating a common frame of understanding through symbol definitions. > > It seems to me an issue of Complexity, a statement more of what we > > recognize as intellectual by Virtue of our own cultural understanding > > of the term. > > Here Ron uses "culture" in a social (value) meaning and it surely > creates a greater social frame, symbols and definitions, like the > Muslim culture where the Koran is the common frame understood > from Morocco to Indonesia. But this is is NOT an intellectual > value culture. The Western culture on the other hand is and its > symbols are all milestones of intellect's struggle with social value. > The Galileo affair, Magna Charta , Habeas Corpus, > Enlightenment, the American and French Revolutions, the > American Civil war, the (at least) Second WW > > I agree with much of what Ron says, but he tends to use > "intellectualize" in the somish - thinking- sense. The 4th level > DOES believe that the individual is more than society and can > survive deprived of social contact. This belief may be wrong in a > MOQ context (there is no 4th. level without a working 3rd. level) > yet valuable as a static value* the highest such. > > *) A social-cuture-raised individual will succumb if deprived of > social contact, while an intellect-culture-raised individual may > survive even if marooned. There are many examples of this, but > it will take too long. > > > Ron: > > Quite correct per my understanding, culture is social. It is not an > > intellectual pattern per say, but the creator of intellectual > > patterns, Or the environment in which intellectual patterns emerge. > > What really seems To define an intellectual culture is it's value of > > the individual. > > Good, hope you remember this at the next crossroad ;-) > > > ------------- > > Ian wrote (2 Jan.) > > > Bo asked What is culture ? I say "Culture" is the sum total of the > > Social & Intellectual levels. "A" culture is one pattern across those > > two levels. Ian > > The culture term is a "jack of all trades" we even speak about > biological cultures (bacteria, yeast ..etc) and does not match what > the MOQ calls the intellectual level, usually it merely indicates an > enlarged social entity, thus I would drop the intellectual part > here. There are no MOQ patterns across two levels, but lots of > words that straddles many levels. > > The reason for what may look as a blunder (that of all cultures > having an immune system) is that "culture" along with "society" > don't always match the MOQ use. A country or state may be > intellect-value-steeped as can a culture be social-value-steeped. > > Yet, Pirsig is correct, all levels have their immune systems, and > he is also right that the psychiatry is intellect's and as we know, > the social cultures has no such system, most deviations from > social norms are treated as "crime" (in quotation marks because > not all societies have police and/or the term crime) and > individuals that the western world would deem mentally ill are just > killed or jailed. > > IMO > > Bo > > > > > > > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
