This is bullshit, you senseless guru! Go study guitar. you may have better
luck - i won't be hypnotized. Get out of the list, you fucking beggar! Die,
die!! you ignorant!
----- Mensagem de [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
Data: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:01:21 +0530
De: Akshay Peshwe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Endereço para Resposta (Reply-To): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Assunto: Re: [MD] Where was Quality before Pirsig?
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> By gravity we either mean the supposed objectively existing (independent of
> our observations, &c.) law or our understanding of it. The law, whose
> objectivity is hypothetical/based on inference, therefore did exist before
> our understanding of it. Within the whole logical system that we call
> gravity, it is indeed true that gravity existed before our knowledge of it,
> because the fundamental assumption of science is that there is a reality
> independent of our observations. This has parallels to the famous question:
> does the tree exist when nobody is looking at it?
>
>
> On 08/01/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> Steve, Moqtalk.
>>
>> 7 Jan. u wrote: (thanks for you well-edited posts)
>>
>> Dan had written:
>> > >>>> As you know, I don't subscribe to your theory that the MOQ is a
>> > >>>> "meta-level." The MOQ is Robert Pirsig's idea and as such is a
>> > >>>> collection of intellectual patterns of value.
>>
>> Peter:
>> > >> I think 'meta-level' is appropriate because openness to the
>> > >> dynamic is
>> > >> like seeing the whole context (the actual levels) by stepping
>> > >> beyond the limits of the 4th level, the limitations of SOM. Besides
>> > >> MoQ is metaphysics!
>>
>> Bo:
>> > > Right, the MOQ is a metaphysics, exactly what I have struggled
>> > > to express. Besides the 4th. level is static and can't contain the
>> > > very DQ/SQ system...
>>
>> Steve:
>> > The intellectual level doesn't hope to contain "the very DQ/sq
>> > system." DQ is obviously not contained in a static level. The 4th
>> > level contains descriptions of DQ. The MOQ isn't reality itself, it
>> > is words about reality. You are confusing the menu and the food.
>>
>> Bo now:
>> You say that the intellectual level contains descriptions of DQ
>> (which it doesn't, it says it's indefinable) but as the MOQ is an
>> intellectual pattern (by your logic) even DQ is a mere description.
>> - for where was Quality before Pirsig? I invoke ZAMM (page 30)
>> and replace Newton with Pirsig, Gravity with Quality, John
>> Sutherland with Steve Peterson, science with metaphysics and
>> the narrator with Bo Skutvik.
>>
>> So Bo goes on. "For example, it seems completely
>> natural to presume that Quality existed before Robert
>> Pirsig. It would sound nutty to think that until the twentieth
>> century there was no Quality."
>>
>> (Steve) "Of course".
>>
>> "So when did this Quality start? Has it always existed?''
>>
>> Steve Peterson is frowning, wondering what Bo is driving
>> at.
>>
>> Bo says "Is the notion that before the beginning of the
>> earth, before the sun and the stars were formed, before
>> the primal generation of anything, the Quality existed?".
>>
>> (Steve) "Sure"
>>
>> Bo continues: "Sitting there, having no mass of its own,
>> no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind because there
>> wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space
>> either, not anywhere...this Quality still existed?"
>>
>> Now Steve seems not so sure.
>>
>> "If that Quality existed" Bo says "..I honestly don't know
>> what a thing has to do to be nonexistent. It seems to me
>> that Quality has passed every test of nonexistence there
>> is. You cannot think of a single attribute of nonexistence
>> that that Quality didn't have. Or a single metaphysical
>> attribute of existence Quality did have. And yet it is still
>> 'common sense' to believe that Quality existed."
>>
>> I'm not mocking Pirsig, it's just his splendid logic backfires. It's no
>> news that great scientific theories re-construct reality, and like a
>> crystallization spreads to include the past. A metaphysical
>> upheaval even more because the world has not experienced one
>> since SOM and it was gradual. Phaedrus of ZAMM tries correctly
>> to point this out and show that there were realities before the
>> scientific revolution - the levels below the 4th. - but Pirsig of LILA
>> forgets this and violates his own insight by making the MOQ a
>> mere description of a Quality reality that has existed from the
>> beginning of time.
>>
>> Think for a change.
>>
>> Bo
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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