Damn you, fool! Go to hell! You corrupted human bei
----- Mensagem de [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---------
Data: Tue, 8 Jan 2008 18:12:22 +0530
De: Akshay Peshwe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Endereço para Resposta (Reply-To): [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Assunto: Re: [MD] Where was Quality before Pirsig?
Para: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> How can you say it does not fit into the MoQ? Gravity is the intellectual
> observation of an inorganic pattern. Although we have no proof of it,
> hypothetically we admit that this inorganic pattern exists even when you are
> not observing it. Even the truth of the law of gravity is not justified
> completely, because we cannot be sure whether the law is really
> being executed all the time or only when we observe events relating to
> gravity.
>
> On 08/01/2008, Akshay Peshwe <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>>
>> By gravity we either mean the supposed objectively existing (independent
>> of our observations, &c.) law or our understanding of it. The law, whose
>> objectivity is hypothetical/based on inference, therefore did exist before
>> our understanding of it. Within the whole logical system that we call
>> gravity, it is indeed true that gravity existed before our knowledge of it,
>> because the fundamental assumption of science is that there is a reality
>> independent of our observations. This has parallels to the famous question:
>> does the tree exist when nobody is looking at it?
>>
>>
>> On 08/01/2008, [EMAIL PROTECTED] <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> >
>> > Steve, Moqtalk.
>> >
>> > 7 Jan. u wrote: (thanks for you well-edited posts)
>> >
>> > Dan had written:
>> > > >>>> As you know, I don't subscribe to your theory that the MOQ is a
>> > > >>>> "meta-level." The MOQ is Robert Pirsig's idea and as such is a
>> > > >>>> collection of intellectual patterns of value.
>> >
>> > Peter:
>> > > >> I think 'meta-level' is appropriate because openness to the
>> > > >> dynamic is
>> > > >> like seeing the whole context (the actual levels) by stepping
>> > > >> beyond the limits of the 4th level, the limitations of SOM. Besides
>> > > >> MoQ is metaphysics!
>> >
>> > Bo:
>> > > > Right, the MOQ is a metaphysics, exactly what I have struggled
>> > > > to express. Besides the 4th. level is static and can't contain the
>> > > > very DQ/SQ system...
>> >
>> > Steve:
>> > > The intellectual level doesn't hope to contain "the very DQ/sq
>> > > system." DQ is obviously not contained in a static level. The 4th
>> > > level contains descriptions of DQ. The MOQ isn't reality itself, it
>> > > is words about reality. You are confusing the menu and the food.
>> >
>> > Bo now:
>> > You say that the intellectual level contains descriptions of DQ
>> > (which it doesn't, it says it's indefinable) but as the MOQ is an
>> > intellectual pattern (by your logic) even DQ is a mere description.
>> > - for where was Quality before Pirsig? I invoke ZAMM (page 30)
>> > and replace Newton with Pirsig, Gravity with Quality, John
>> > Sutherland with Steve Peterson, science with metaphysics and
>> > the narrator with Bo Skutvik.
>> >
>> > So Bo goes on. "For example, it seems completely
>> > natural to presume that Quality existed before Robert
>> > Pirsig. It would sound nutty to think that until the twentieth
>> > century there was no Quality."
>> >
>> > (Steve) "Of course".
>> >
>> > "So when did this Quality start? Has it always existed?''
>> >
>> > Steve Peterson is frowning, wondering what Bo is driving
>> > at.
>> >
>> > Bo says "Is the notion that before the beginning of the
>> > earth, before the sun and the stars were formed, before
>> > the primal generation of anything, the Quality existed?".
>> >
>> > (Steve) "Sure"
>> >
>> > Bo continues: "Sitting there, having no mass of its own,
>> > no energy of its own, not in anyone's mind because there
>> > wasn't anyone, not in space because there was no space
>> > either, not anywhere...this Quality still existed?"
>> >
>> > Now Steve seems not so sure.
>> >
>> > "If that Quality existed" Bo says "..I honestly don't know
>> > what a thing has to do to be nonexistent. It seems to me
>> > that Quality has passed every test of nonexistence there
>> > is. You cannot think of a single attribute of nonexistence
>> > that that Quality didn't have. Or a single metaphysical
>> > attribute of existence Quality did have. And yet it is still
>> > 'common sense' to believe that Quality existed."
>> >
>> > I'm not mocking Pirsig, it's just his splendid logic backfires. It's no
>> > news that great scientific theories re-construct reality, and like a
>> > crystallization spreads to include the past. A metaphysical
>> > upheaval even more because the world has not experienced one
>> > since SOM and it was gradual. Phaedrus of ZAMM tries correctly
>> > to point this out and show that there were realities before the
>> > scientific revolution - the levels below the 4th. - but Pirsig of LILA
>> > forgets this and violates his own insight by making the MOQ a
>> > mere description of a Quality reality that has existed from the
>> > beginning of time.
>> >
>> > Think for a change.
>> >
>> > Bo
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Moq_Discuss mailing list
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>>
>>
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