> [SA previously]
> I told you. Maybe the mainstream culture will try
> to find out
> why. Maybe mainstream culture will have to reach
> out and try to
> change the way things are.
> [Arlo]
> So, your plan is that by not voting, the
> "maintstream culture" will
> try to find out why, and then who will change
> things?
SA: I see what your saying here. I'm not putting
much stock in mainstream culture changing due to
people not-voting. I guess, and this goes back to
honoring my belief, that I don't believe that we need
a gov't to do things for us. Even the military could
be ready and then serve in militia style. The enemy
comes, some people have been practicing, and then they
go after the enemy. The enemy may be marching towards
us overseas and we go get them, whichever way it
happens. I see the gov't's role for today's world,
but that's because the gov't has gotten itself so tied
up in today's world that if it suddenly pulled out of
most world affairs I don't think the world could
handle it. Why are most countries in the world
basically internal? Globalization is pulling many
countries into world affairs, but then you have a
country like Mongolia that goes from major city with a
big airport to people living in yurts with horses.
The government seems to have the need to be as big as
it wants to sink its' toes in world affairs. The more
a country wants to economically invest in world
affairs then the more that country needs a bigger
gov't department to oversee such affairs. I'm too
much of a leave me alone kind of person. I'll pay for
the military with sales tax. There may be other
programs that taxes would be only governmentally
completed. The highway system... could I live without
it. Yes. What would that mean? I don't know.
People with their toys, their cars, wouldn't have a
place to drive them I guess, but then again they could
invest in these roads, toll roads maybe. You use it,
then you pay for them. What about all the local
roads? Honestly I just go to work far from the house
because I can't make enough money at my house. What
about if I could sell ideas? You pointed out ideas
should be free. Well, if I could sell them, I would,
just so I could use my time to do 'things' locally
where I live. The only needs that pull me far from
the house is work so I can pay the bills. Population
is a factor. With so many people I moved to a
location close enough to work with affordable housing
yet woods are close by and family is still within a
short drive. I would live in more woodsy locations if
I could find a job near them, my wife could, and we
were close enough to our families. Yet, $ is the
major factor in all decisions in my life. Major
decisions in this culture are work, affordable
housing, close to family (for some people), and how
I'm going to get to work (vehicle), to afford a house,
that is close to my family. These are our simplified
pragmatic choices in life. Maybe somewhere along the
line, we go on a vacation, read a book to go on a
mental vacation, type on the computer in a forum to go
on a mental vacation, and what I'm going to have to do
more and more thus, I'm not going to be on this forum
that much anymore, is play with my son more and more
now that he is getting older and loves to play outside
now. Where in here did I find a need for a gov't
other than we find a need for a gov't in today's world
to keep these 'things' without too much interference
from corruption and warlords? But aren't those
solutions that begin in ones own heart?
[Arlo]
> This is a different topic, but okay, do you really
> feel safe with
> these clowns making enemies at every turn? Are you
> content to sit
> back and wait until the "mainstream culture" changes
> things and
> passively accept aggressive, warmongering buffoons
> like Dubya?
SA: Who's Dubya?
[Arlo]
> And while the government restricts itself to
> "watching for enemies on
> the horizon" (no doubt they will find them
> abundant), what do you
> propose we do about public libraries, police, fire
> and EMT, public
> parks and national forests, the civic courts, the
> federal reserve and
> mint, the public roadways and waterways, mass
> transit, public
> education, diplomacy efforts (assuming we actually
> want to make
> friends, rather than lying on the ground with sniper
> rifles waiting
> for ghouls and goblins)? What about water, sewage,
> trash and reading
> initiatives in your local area? What about
> protecting your beloved
> valleys and hiking paths from landfills and the
> millions of tons of
> garbage we churn out daily? Who do you think does
> all this?
> Government... that is _you_ and _me_, we do it, we
> are the government, SA.
SA: I understand this Arlo. I just don't see the
gov't as the way to keep these 'things' in motion.
Without a gov't we probably wouldn't have many of
these things, but this is the baggage we, as a people,
want to carry around. We want all this modernity. I
could live without all the roads. If the population
size was lower, then we could downsize in many areas.
As for public libraries, there full of dreams. Full
of authors that dream of this and that. I'm one of
those dreamers that don't put stock in exterior
necessities. I could live a more simply life. My
family does live a pretty simply, humble life as it
is. Small house, with some trees in the yard. We
don't use heat in the winter other than space heaters.
We could probably get rid of some of this stuff we
have, but we don't have much stuff to begin with. We
could have local medicine shops with doctors with
western and eastern practices. I don't know. I'm
dreaming. I'm dreaming of a time when much is
downsized and we don't have many expenses as a
culture. We use more free energy, like solar. Yet,
how do we provide the technology for these. People
who want to work on these things go and work on them.
They don't have to go to school for long years learn
all this garbage, and then actually do what they want
to do. If they change their minds, well, vocational
schools or libraries could help. Maybe a neighbor
could chip in and teach you something. You need your
roof fixed, then ask the neighbor, he or she may be
able to help. Yet, life would need to slow down.
People would need the opportunity to be able to sit
down with each other and find out what we know how to
do. We would also allow people to do things right
away. Forget having children go to school for the
rest of their lives when they begin to dabble and
tinker with something. They should be given the
chance to go for it. Yet, time would need to slow
down so children could be given the chance. I have
much to say, but this could go on to long, so, I'll
stop for now.
> [Arlo]
> Again, SA, I never proposed you did not "care" about
> "anything", nor
> did I claim that you are not effecting change with
> your work. But
> what do you tell these kids? Don't vote, because
> your vote is
> meaningless?
SA: I never say that. I leave that up to them.
Don't worry.
Arlo:
> Don't vote and sit back and wait for
> the mainstream
> culture to figure out what's wrong and fix it? Or do
> you teach them
> agency? Do you teach them to stand up and try to fix
> things they
> think are broken? And even if one person doesn't
> change the system,
> it is better to have tried to do what is right and
> failed, than to
> sit back and accept mediocrity?
SA: I'm glad if these kids behave properly and don't
yell or require many staff to put hands on them.
Arlo:
> I certainly hope that the future of this country
> does stand up and
> get involved and care, rather than tune out. Indeed,
> that's the
> problem today, no one cares. Everyone is too busy
> with that, or too
> apathetic about this, or they are so convinced that
> nothing will ever
> change, they simply turn into good sheep and allow
> ever-shrinking
> minorities or wealthy power brokers tell them what
> they can and can't do.
SA: Well, we both agree on this. We just have
different solutions. Mine begins with ones' own self,
yours with representatives to do it for you.
> [Arlo]
> That's like saying you're unhappy because your car
> doesn't work, but
> happy to sit back and wait for some mechanic to
> recognize that its
> broken and then fix it. If you were truly unhappy,
> SA, you'd be
> working to change things, not sitting back and
> either ignoring it or
> hoping someone else changes it for you.
SA: See, this is the problem with people who invest
in others to represent them. They begin to see that
other people must do 'things' for them, and when
somebody doesn't invest in their representational way,
then they think those people are apathetic just
because they don't follow them like good little sheep.
Arlo:
> I think the reason this issue riles so many, is
> because it completely
> undermines the citizen-participation required for a
> democracy to
> operate. You say, ah but its a republic, not a
> democracy. Fine, and
> who left it become that? We did. We have no one to
> blame but
> ourselves. And who's going to fix it. If not you,
> who?
SA: It's always been a republic. I don't know where
this democratic stuff came from that you think we
lost.
Arlo:
> See that's the other problem, all these unhappy
> people sitting around
> waiting for someone else to do the work. And we
> wonder why we get
> nothing but clowns to vote for.
SA: You vote in people to do it for you. I'm going
to try to live a good life. Talk to people I meet day
to day, and in whatever activity I participate with
I'll put in my heart for the good. A good deeper than
relying on somebody else to do it for me.
> [SA previously]
> Yes, "we the people". I'm a real person Arlo.
> [Arlo]
> And when did I ever imply or state otherwise?
SA: You keep saying I'm not doing anything. From my
perspective your saying I don't hit home runs for the
Yankees because I didn't try, but I don't play on that
team Arlo. I'm hittin' and running for another team.
Just cause I don't do what you do, doesn't mean I
don't do anything. Your overlooking the value here.
SA
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