Hi Steve, > > [Platt] > > Most social institutions, except those that provide for change from > > within, are examples of social patterns attempting to devour intellectual > > patterns. > Steve: > Good point. The laws in the US and even the Constitution make the > American government open to change in the way that religions aren't. > (Of course religions actually do change over time, but they don't > like to admit it.) > > [Steve] > >> Do religious beliefs need to be "respected" in some way since the > >> intellectual level's evolution depends on the social level?" > > [Platt] > > All beliefs should be "respected" except those that justify > > physical harm > > to others. Someone's beliefs you consider mistaken may turn out to be > > valid. Intellectual level morality requires an open mind. > > Ron: > > It's about tolerance of belief > > Not necessarily what you believe in. > > Steve: > I agree that beliefs need to be respected in some sense of the term, > but what does it mean to respect or be tolerant of people's beliefs?
[Platt] To me it means 1) not threatening nor doing physical harm to others because of their beliefs, 2) not verbally attacking them personally, and 3) protecting their right to freely express their beliefs no matter how objectionable you may consider them to be. [Steve] > Faith requires uncritical loyalty to the truth claims of the religion > (which inhibit the evolution of the intellectual level). Faith then is the > enemy of reason. [Platt] Careful. Some have faith -- as you define it -- in reason. [Steve] > Does tolerance and respect for people's beliefs mean that we > shouldn't question people's beliefs? We want evidence or at least > logical cohesion before we "respect" beliefs on any other topic but > religion. It's considered in poor taste to question religious > beliefs. Isn't this social pattern of "respecting people's belief's" > by not questioning them a social pattern that inhibits intellectual > evolution? [Platt] I think you can question anyone's beliefs including those who believe that science is the final arbiter "Truth." Respecting other people's beliefs is an intellectual level moral stance against bigotry. > Platt: > > It is certainty of belief (dogmatism) that leads to > > trouble, whether religious or otherwise. The crowning glory of > > science is > > the belief that all their "truths" are provisional. Unfortunately, > > some > > scientists as well as a lot of lay people forget that. [Steve] > Is Pirsig's description of intellectual quality as including > consistency with experience and logical coherence just another dogma? [Platt] It could be if someone takes is as the gospel truth. I don't think Pirsig considers it etched in stone. [Steve] > Religions promote the idea that it is not just okay to believe things > without evidence or cohesive rationale, it is actually a virtue to do so. > This seems to me (and Harris) to be a very dangerous pattern of thought. > > "Religious moderates—by refusing to question the legitimacy of > raising children to believe that they are Christians, Muslims, and > Jews—tacitly support the religious divisions in our world. They also > perpetuate the myth that a person must believe things on insufficient > evidence in order to have an ethical and spiritual life. While religious > moderates don't fly planes into buildings, or organize their lives around > apocalyptic prophecy, they refuse to deeply question the preposterous ideas > of those who do."--Sam Harris > > The result is that we can't talk about the fundamental issue in the > war on terror, which is faith in dogma (like it is a Muslim's duty to fight > the infidels and that martyrs will be rewarded in an afterlife for doing > so) because though the actions of militant Islamists are criticized, we > can't question their faith. Instead we have a war on "terror" while the > true enemy to civilization remains unnamed. [Platt] It is the actions of militant Islamist terrorists that we war against, not their beliefs. Punishing people for their beliefs is a social level pattern attempting to devour an intellectual pattern. Let us be vigilant against thought police. Regards, Platt Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
