Hi Ham, Steve: > > Religious people claim that when rational argument and evidence >> (or what intellectual quality terms you like) fail to support their >> beliefs >> one must "have faith." In this sense, faith is an intellectual pattern >> that >> says that some bad ideas should be considered good ideas. >> In the MOQ, this betrayal of reason is immoral.
Ham: >I can understand that equating bad ideas--if they are indeed bad--with good >ones shows a lack of discrimination, or at the most, poor judgment. But how >can a belief be "immoral"? Immorality is what conflicts with accepted >moral principles or social custom. Steve: This is your definition of morality, Ham. If you've read Lila then you know that the MOQ involves a different use of the term than you are applying to my claim that faith is immoral. Obviously atheism is immoral in the traditional usage of the term. But to say so is irrelevant. Have you considered accepting the MOQ premise that experience is Quality for the sake of argument and seeing where that leads you? This is a discussion group on the MOQ after all. Ham: >The MOQ takes the elitist position that only its belief system is >reasonable, and thus capable of defining morality. Steve: I don't think that has been said by Pirsig or anyone else in support of the MOQ. Ham: >Faith in the MOQ >includes the belief that the universe is a moral system, which means that >only man can be immoral because he alone has free will. Steve: This free will business has nothing to do with the MOQ. Have you read ZAMM or Lila? Ham: >Is it reasonable to condemn faith, which is the individual's expression of >perceived values, by calling it immoral? Steve: I'm not talking about expressing values. I'm talking about claiming that Jesus is God sent by God to save mankind, that Jesus was born of a virgin, that you will go to hell if you don't believe the above. I think it is reasonable to say that claiming that certain statements must be accepted and affirmed as true "on faith" as in without reason or evidence or even with evidence to the contrary is immoral in MOQ terms. It is akin to saying you know something that you don't know, in other words, a lie. Worse, faith includes the idea that this sort of lieing is commendable. Regards, Steve Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
