Hi Steve, To "expunge" language is a tall order. I believe we have to let evolution take its course in our usage of it. We can of course influence that course by setting and spreading good examples. (This is my fascination with "memes".)
I claerly agree with the gist of your final point ... "At any rate, faith as the idea that it is a virtue to belief things that don't make sense to you is a dangerous one." ... but still feel there is a caveat - one that David M also makes. Sometimes we simply have to "believe" things we don't fully understanding, in order to "make sense" out of the unknown - and it's a good job we do. Sometimes it's called "taking a holiday" (James ?) - it's pragmatic to do so. Our knowledge of the world is incomplete and dynamic. The important thing is not to forget that's why you (temporarily) believe something, and are open to modify the position when evidence and other pragmatic needs arise. As you say, that kind of belief taken as as unquestioning / unshakable faith (dogma) is what is dangerous. This is what I meant earlier by "strong views, lightly held". It's healthy to hold views that are "strong" in terms of available reason and sense, but to hold them "lightly", so that they are NOT "unshakable" or ignorant in the face of evidence, or "new sense". We're violently agreeing on the kind of faith that is scary. Ian. On /25/08, Steve Peterson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi Ian, all the faithful > > > I think we've established that here (and in Harris) "faith" is being > > used in the "Blind Faith" / unquestioning sense, but we've also just > > agreed there is a level of interpretation in what is claimed to be > > believed over what may actually be believed. But we're playing > > definitional games around the edges - as we always end up doing. > > > > Perhaps I could re-word Gav's "Faith is experiential knowledge" ? > > Are you trying to say "True faith (the quality kind, not the blind > > kind) is faith in real experience (the Jamesian / Pirsigian, > > participatory kind)". > > > > Reclaiming a good word may be better that casting around for another - > > there are never enough words to go round. > > Steve: > Until reading the End of Faith I had a strong interest in reclaiming > the language of religion. > > I found this quote relevant: > "If one no longer has use for the word "God"…Still why use religious > terms? Indeed it might be better not to use them because they are > always misunderstood. But what other terms are there? > We need a new language, and new poets to create it, and new ears to > listen to it. > Meanwhile, if we shut our ears to the old prophets who still speak > more or less in the old tongues, using ancient words, occasionally in > new ways, we shall have very little music. > We are not so rich that we can do without tradition. Let him that > has new ears listen to it in a new way." Walter Kaufmann > > The problem is I can't "listen in a new way" to pedophile priests, > sacred bombings, one-celled human life, Jesus crackers, predictions > of the end of the world, etc. > > These words are fine for poetry, but they to be expunged from public > discourse. There is a usage of the word faith that is opposed to > intellect and with global terrorism on the rise, opposed to > civilization itself. Dogmatic religious beliefs aren't just laughable > anymore, they are scary. > > This use of the word faith is so confused with the use of faith as > trust, loyalty, real mystical experience, etc. that it may be better > if the word itself disappeared for a while. > > At any rate, faith as the idea that it is a virtue to belief things > that don't make sense to you is a dangerous one. > > Regards, > Steve > > > > > Logic and sermons never convince, > The damp of the night drives deeper into my soul. > Only what proves itself to every man and woman is so, > Only what nobody denies is so. > --W Whitman > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
