Chris ... and Jorge if interested. Magnus too if still "turned on".
2 February.
Bo earlier
> > I think your only miss the said intelligence/intellectual
> > distinction. If you can stand it I may expand on that issue.
Chris:
> Ah, yes, I don't think I disagree with you, but rather this is a mixup
> caused by language, so, please, if you wish, do expand, and my
> question would be, what level did the thoughts about the universe and
> Gods and the like from around 4000 BC belong to? I think I need to get
> my definitions straightened out. =)
Because the MOQ rejects the S/O distinction - and all its
derivatives (among those mind/matter) - as reality's deepest
divide there is no mind realm in the Q-Universe (as little as there
is a material one) This is revolution and one would believe that
people would gasp, protest or cry out in horror, but most don't bat
an eyelid because - to them - it's just another theory about
something called Quality - Pirsig himself has said so - but the
MOQ isn't about reality, it's a new Reality divided along the
Dynamic/Static fault.
I call upon Magnus because I believe he and I once agreed about
"intelligence" and the catastrophe for the MOQ if its 4th. level is
mixed up with thinking. Our reasoning went something like this:
As the biological (neural) complexity grew into nodes called brain
a capacity to store earlier experience (memory) emerged and
also the capability to retrieve the content into a "cache" to
manipulate it in a logical: "if-this-is-done-such-will-happen"
manner. Something that makes some animals so smart and
adaptive. Well, at the biological level the question if this is
"subjective" don't exist, there is no S/O at that level. Now come
the Homo Sapiens with its big brain and also the the transition to
the social level (this I don't go into here) and when language
arrived the manipulation of stored memory took the form of
(silent) language, the inner dialogue we call "thinking". But still
intellect's S/O was in the future, people did not regard this as
taking place "in the mind". Julian Jaynes suggests that it was
interpreted as god's speaking to them and it may be right, but this
is a very early stage, when humankind proper emerged things
were much like Pirsig says in ZAMM.
One must first get over the idea that the time span
between the last caveman and the first Greek
philosophers was short. The absence of any history for
this period sometimes gives this illusion. But before the
Greek philosophers arrived on the scene, for a period of
at least five times all our recorded history since the Greek
philosophers, there existed civilizations in an advanced
state of development. They had villages and cities,
vehicles, houses, marketplaces, bounded fields,
agricultural implements and domestic animals, and led a
life quite as rich and varied as that in most rural areas of
the world today.
Yet - as said - the S/O distinction was still in the future, there was
no border between language (silent as thinking or spoken out
loud) and reality. Language was a powerful means of
manipulating existence through correctly performed rituals, these
could sway the moods of the gods, bring animals to their hunting
grounds ...etc. all that we call "magic" and is still performed by
the few primitive there is, but is better known as religious rituals.
Finally to your question:
> .. what level did the thoughts about the universe and Gods and the like
> from around 4000 BC belong to? I think I need to get my definitions
> straightened out. =)
Their "thoughts" belonged to the social level because the social
level had adopted biology's intelligence capacity and when
language was added this became the most prominent SOCIAL
asset, but - note - still not regarded as a subjective rendering of
objective experience.
This only arrived with the intellectual level that suddenly saw the
said manipulation of experience as taking place in a mental
space called "mind", while experience itself belonged to the outer
objective world. If you see my point of the 4th. level introducing
the S/O split and this becoming cemented into a metaphysics,
you may also understand my effort to get this discussion to
understand that from WITHIN the intellectual LEVEL - within
SOM - the term "intellect" means mind, and to make this into the
4th level is the greatest obstacle to the MOQ.
Thanks for reading anyway.
Bo
Moq_Discuss mailing list
Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc.
http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org
Archives:
http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/
http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
