Hi Bo,
>Pirsig: >> > Flattery will get you nowhere ;-) I suspect you want to >> > hear that what is "conspicuously absent" is SOM, but I am >> > not sure that SOM was absent in early Biblical times since >> > early social statements such as "Beware of the crocodile!" >> > or "Javeh will reward you," are SOM but are not >> > intellectual in the MOQ sense. > >Steve: >> I disagree that these statements are SOM. I can't see how these >> statements presuppose subjective/objective knowledge distinctions > >Right, at least you agree with me that the subject/object >distinction is something more than (biological) self/not self and >the (social) observing person as different from the dangerous >crocodile. Pirsig then adds: "..but not intellectual in the MOQ >sense". To me it sounds as if he here means the real SOM, the >one described in ZAMM. But if so why not say "... not SOM in the >intellectual sense"? Possibly because that would be affirming the >SOL. > >Well, what's your conclusion? Doesn't it look as if the SOL >interpretation is behind Pirsig's MOQ. I mean something to be >deduced from it? Steve: I have no problem with the definition of the intellectual level as patterns of value recognized as manipulations of abstract patterns of experience. These abstract patterns of experinence may be referred to as mental objects and they are manipulated by a subject so in this sense you can think of intellect as S/O, but it seems that you want to take it further and say that the fourth level is SOM. You add an M for "metaphysics." To me SOM is recognized as making subjective/objective knowledge distinctions which I do not see as the foundation of the fourth level. Metaphysics is philosophy. It is thinking about thinking. Some people never do this, but all people (except severely disabled people) participate in intellectual patterns. I also don't think making the MOQ it's own meta-level makes any sense. You have to do this because you define the intellectual level not just as S/O but as SOM, so the MOQ being a new metaphysics must stand outside. But I see no problem putting anyone's intellectual patterns in the intellectual level regardless of the content because the intellectual level is just a type of pattern, not a metaphysics. Metaphysics is a subset of intellect. Regards, Steve Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
