> [DM] > Yes, but the individual (as made possible by 4 levels including the > social) > allows a higher level of DQ to emerge, this is very important. > > [Arlo] > I still have troubles with this terminology. For example, if the > "individual" > is "four patterns", then what was there before intellect? Was "man" just > three > patterns back then? >
DM: We do obviously have to recognise that prior to individual-human/social-human/intellectual-human emergence we were simply animals. > And I don't think the "individual" allows anything to emerge. DM: Are you failing to recognise thatwe need to see that individuals can bring about change and make a real difference, otherwise does not the system dominate? I think the > interplay between "individual patterns" and their "collective activity" on > any > given layer is from where the higher level(s) emerge. DM: Sure but is not the individual more dynamic than the unconscious structures of social reproduction? I'd also argue that the > "individual" did not make it possible for the intellectual level to > emerge. The > interactivity of individual patterns on the social level did. DM: Sure to make shelves you need wood, and a carpenter trained by society, but can society innovate and create a new type of shelf without the dynamic capacity of the individual? > > But, I think we are more or less on the same page, I just really don't > like the > (what is to me) old S/O terminology. DM: Sure, but in rejecting SOM we should not reject the way DQ emerges via the evolved capacities and evolved potential of collections of higher level patterns from atoms to molecules to DNA to plants to animals to individualised social intellectual animals called human beings. I think there is no getting away from the co-emergence of individuality, sociality, tool inventing capacity and intellectuality to give us human beings. Yes my danger is slipping back to SOM with this langauge, your danger is not recognising the reality of individual experience in its crucially dynamic as well as static aspects. This is why MOQ improves on the SOM assumptions of both the political left and right. Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
