> Ron prev:
> I was not positing a center, it was merely
> an observation About how humans perceive this non
center reality. I
> get it.
SA: Ok. I don't know if you think this way or not,
but those that declare that the fourth level is the
individual level are morally centering the individual
human being as the center of the universe, except for
dq (but I don't know if they say except for dq).
Yet,
what they are saying is that the highest moral, the
best static patttern/manifestation is the human being
- this is declaring that humans are the center of the
universe. I'd say this is an ego-inflation of the
human being. Individuals are a generic term. Hitler
was an individual, but we're not saying he was the
highest and best moral static pattern.
Ron:
I think you are misinterpreting the moral hierarchy, the complex
system of society and individual do define what is known
as the intellectual level as per Arlo's comments. The intellectual
level as we know it is a human level almost exclusively as it
sits now. I think Pirsig arranged the levels in a hierarchy to culminate
all evolution to the individual human experience. This is what I was
talking about. All I can ever know about anything is through my own
senses, experiences, thoughts and perceptions, which to attain an even
higher moral standard per MoQ levels is to focus on my own immediate
experience. As you say the individual really does not exist except via
the intellectual level, the concept of self is a complex ambiguous
notion
developed with society and language, but the MoQ does seem to state
via the levels that personal immediate pre-intellectual experience
is the highest moral standard. "Kill all intellectual patterns and
morality will be served". Does a chipmunk need to kill
intellectual patterns?
Here's the argument in a nut shell, speaking intellectually you are
correct.
Speaking MoQ, My personal human experience is the only way in which I
know reality, thusly it stands to reason that my knowledge of reality is
human(myself) personally oriented, to be more precise, I am the source
Of my knowledge of reality. I being a complex total of all levels right
Up to my own immediate experience. In many ways I am the center of the
universe, so are you, so is each one of us, each living aware entity.
But, because we can only communicate between ourselves what we do know
Is limited to our experience as human beings.
Ron prev:
> This is where I've been coming from. I said in a
way,
> conceptually, reality from
> a human perspective is all we really can know about
> reality by way of
> this quality=value=experience. But does this
> quality=value=experience=
> reality itself?
SA: Does quality reality itself? Is this what your
asking?
Ron: I'm asking : Does experience equal reality in your opinion.
Ron prev:
> In my opinion it is not, experience
> is not reality. It is a form of
> Reality, it is reality filtered, condensed and
> exaggerated , by the
> human Body , certainly we do not sense nor
understand it
> in it's entirety As it flows.
SA: This is limiting the definition of what
experience is. As Ian said in this thread, he doesn't
argue with an moq understanding of experience. This
understanding of the moq has been difficult for some
to understand or they reject right off the bat and
don't try to understand it. I'll start with a
question that may lead to more questions, but at the
moment this is the best way I know how to get your
frame of mind in accord with what I refer to as
experience.
What does 'event' mean to you?
Ron:
An event, to me is a complex process of patterns, commonly
Perceived as having a beginning and an end.
If I may ask you, do you feel we perceive and experience reality in it's
entirety? That what we experience everyday is reality itself.
What we experience is what it is, nothing more. Rocks are rocks
As we perceive them trees are trees as we perceive them.
We experience reality as it actually is. You give me the
Impression that this is you view.
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