Steve 26 Feb.
Steve originally: > >> I don't think there is such a thing as biology's intelligence. To > >> talk about intellect in animals is not what people usually mean by > >> intellectual and is certainly not how Pirsig uses the term in the > >> MOQ. Bo replied: > > You really are difficult. Aren't there intelligent - smart - > > animals? Steve now: > Good point. We certainly do talk about certain animals being smarter > than others. Good, that was something. > But I don't think that animals think as Pirsig defines thinking as > symbol manipulation. I think most scientists believe that animal > behavior that looks like thinking can be explained by conditioning > rather than abstract thought. But dear Steve, Pirsig does NOT define thinking as symbol manipulation, it's INTELLECT he defines that way, after railing considerably against thinking as intellect (the Paul Turner letter). Science, SOM (intellect itself ) as you correctly say defines thinking as manipulation of symbols and has a hard time explaining animal's creative intelligence. They ascribe it to instincts and/or conditioning (Pavlov's dogs) but this is clearly inadequate. > It's an interesting topic, and I welcome hearing from anyone who has > any insight into animal cognition. If animals do participate in > intellectual patterns as Pirsig defines them it would be a problem for > the MOQ as Bo says. Steve, come to your senses! Animals participating in INTELLECTUAL ...!! Can't you snap out of this your Pavlovian trait? "Manipulation of symbols ..etc." was Pirsig's last effort to define intellect, but I maintain that this merely is a definition of language and that language added to the biological ability to "manipulate experience" creates what the intellectual level calls thinking. Thus the said level's value is not thinking itself but that of regarding it as an abstract process going on in a mental compartment called MIND. In the same vein, intellect is not manipulation of symbols, but the immense value of distinguishing between symbols and what they symbolize. This is the only view that doesn't pose a problem for the MOQ. IMO Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
