Chis, Steve 20 Feb. Ivarsson wrote:
Steve: > > In the MOQ intellect is a type of pattern of value and the MOQ > > itself is an intellectual pattern. There is no such thing as an MOQ > > pattern. In other words, I don't know what you are getting at. Chris: > "intellectual pattern" is something that the MOQ invents. The > intellectual pattern exists in the MOQ only, and it does NOT mean > thinking - you ALL know this! So, continuing: Bo butts in: Steve's above was for me and I answered the day before, but Chris' comment is to the point. Steve seemingly will never get the idea that the intellectual LEVEL (all levels come to think of it) are a new classification of existence, he continues to view it from the old classification. Chis: > The tendency to extend the intellectual level far more then necessary > I think is a residue of SOM thinking. When people start to think about > their thoughts as separate from the world they are living in, making an > effective S/O division that's really when the Intellectual level starts > to grow, you all know me to hold this position. Furthermore, this > special way of perceiving the world/everything then puts everything > within frames of it's own - the SOM, and "thinking" is then forever > associated with this - indeed this is what "thinking" MEANS to all > intents and purposes. Bang on!!! > Furthermore, when this view takes hold, it is naturally so that it says > that "thinking" has always been around, logical thinking, illogical > thinking - it doesn't matter, it's Thinking all the same. Since this is > a fundamental way of perceiving the world this becomes the most basic > and natural way of things, Thinking is fundamental, and makes up the > world. This too. From intellect's high perch the past looks like various forms of weak-mindedness. Intellect knows no levels thus what is MOQ social level is superstition, bigotry, fanaticism ...etc. and the biological level is mere instincts. > When the MOQ comes along and says that there really is no such thing > as thinking, it does so within this frame of referances which has > become fundamental, and impossible to escape - the languages we use is > formed by this notion (even the word notion). So, when Bodvar (and now > I) say that the intellectual level is only the Subject/Object > division, this poses a problem. Say again! SA (Heather) repeatedly pointed to so few understanding the SOL, he obviously sees philosophy as a popularity contest. Pirsig spoke about sloshing old tea in your cup and the need for replacing it to understand the MOQ. > "But people has always been thinking!" you say, and "what about > animals, aren't they thinking?" - "the people of ancient Mesopotamia, > weren't they thinking?" Yes, they were, and, yes, they are, if you use > "thinking" the way it has been used now for about 2000 years. But not > in a MOQ sense. In our reality there is no such thing as thinking, > there is only Quality, and the way it's manifested. In affect, the > people of Mesopotamia and the people of present day Sweden are both > "Thinking" from a S/O point of view, that is, they are/were using > their brains in complex ways to interpret things around them - BUT > when we look at it from a MOQ perspective, all they where really > doing, and is doing is responding to Quality. The MOQ says that this > has been done in different ways - that's the Levels folks - but it is > all Quality in our book. I just want to add. INTELLIGENCE (the BIOLOGICAL capacity to "manipulate experience" was adopted by the 3rd. level and with language added it became the most powerful social pattern/tool. At the time of the great kingdoms, Mesopotamia, Assyria etc. this tool was already honed to great sharpness, but still not regarded as mere thinking. Dreams weren't mere "figments of brain" but visitations from beyond, God(s) appearing before prophets weren't mental illness, but accepted as - well - as God's commandments... etc. ad infinity. Only with the 4th - intellectual - level did thes subject/object split occur. The said "manipulation of experience" became thinking and seen as taking place in a mental compartment called MIND, and - as Chris says - this intellectual reality is so cemented that it takes an Munchausen (he who lifted himself by the hair) effort to see the Quality Idea.beyond intellect. > For the last 2000 years there has been the notion that thinking has > always been around, and it just differed a bit, then the MOQ comes > along and says - no, not really. But that thing, that notion of > thinking always being around in different ways makes up a world view > that is so different from any other things that has been around and > will be around I'll wager, that it constitutes a Level in the MOQ > book. Amen! > So, when I see people anxiously wanting to extend the intellectual > level further and further I think it is just residues of the grip that > this S/O world view still has on us all. Yes, and how could Pirsig do the MOQ the disservice of making it an intellectual pattern? > If we recognize this It becomes much easier for us to continue our > work of establishing this new view of things (where there is no > things) ;-) Bo Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
