Hello Steve >>> Steve: >>> In the MOQ intellect is a type of pattern of value and the MOQ itself >>> is an intellectual pattern. There is no such thing as an MOQ pattern. >>> In other words, I don't know what you are getting at. > > Chris: >>"intellectual pattern" is something that the MOQ invents. > > Steve: > This term is something that Robert M Pirsig invented.
Yes. And now it's a part of the MOQ.? > Chris: >>The intellectual >>pattern exists in the MOQ only, and it does NOT mean thinking - > Steve: > But RMP says it does mean thinking. He defined it as such. Could it be > that you are not thinking about thinking in the way RMP is? Maybe, It's hard to say, RMP is very vague about this, so it falls to us to hammer this out before the MOQ can work properly. RMP is "only" the creator of the MOQ after all, if it is to survive we must be able to continue developing it when needed. - continuing below - > Chris: >> The tendency to extend the intellectual >>level far more then necessary I think is a residue of SOM thinking. When >>people start to think about their thoughts as separate from the world they >>are living in, making an effective S/O division that's really when the >>Intellectual level starts to grow, you all know me to hold this position. >>Furthermore, this special way of perceiving the world/everything then puts >>everything within frames of it's own - the SOM, and "thinking" is then >>forever associated with this - indeed this is what "thinking" MEANS to all >>intents and purposes. > > Steve: > If thinking means makin effective S/O distinction and that distinction is > intellect, doesn't that mean that intellect is thinking? No, The intellectual level is constituted by a S/O world-view. Thinking is a term that only exists within this world-view. > Chris: >>Furthermore, when this view takes hold, it is >>naturally so that it says that "thinking" has always been around, logical >>thinking, illogical thinking - it doesn't matter, it's Thinking all the >>same. Since this is a fundamental way of perceiving the world this becomes >>the most basic and natural way of things, Thinking is fundamental, and >>makes >>up the world. >> >>When the MOQ comes along and says that there really is no such thing as >>thinking, > Steve: > Where does Pirsig say there is no such thing as thinking? Chris Within the MOQ world-view, everything is Quality and manifestations of Quality. "Thoughts" is a SOM term. Within a MOQ world-view we would say "Inorganic, Biological, Social and Intellectual responses to Quality" a SOMist would say thoughts. When we use the term we tend to get caught ut in old SOM ways of reasoning, mostly because the language is built on SOM. >>it does so within this frame of referances which has become >>fundamental, and impossible to escape - the languages we use is formed by >>this notion (even the word notion). So, when Bodvar (and now I) say that >>the >>intellectual level is only the Subject/Object division, this poses a >>problem. >> Chris: >>"But people has always been thinking!" you say, and "what about animals, >>aren't they thinking?" - "the people of ancient Mesopotamia, weren't they >>thinking?" Yes, they were, and, yes, they are, if you use "thinking" the >>way >>it has been used now for about 2000 years. > Steve: > This is not what Pirsig means by thinking. He says that it is the > manipulations of abstract symbols that stand for patterns of experience. > Animals don't do that. So what does a monkey do with his brain then would you say? Or a dog? Or a elephant or.you get the picture - what do they do with their brains would you say. IMO Chris Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
