On 31 Mar 2008 at 19:37, Dan Glover wrote:
> I think the MOQ defines culture as social and intellectual patterns of
> value (see LILA'S CHILD).
The MOQ does not define culture as anything but part of
intellect's Culture/Nature dichotomy, one of that level's many S/O
distinctions (aggregates)
If however we step down from the MOQ to intellect, "culture"
indicates a secondary reality that has established itself on top of
the primary natural world ... so says the objectivist (objective
over subjective) The subjectivists on the other hand says that it's
the other way round: The human culture is what has created
"nature". The finer points here I omit, but the "subjective over
objective" attitude is clear.
> [Dan]
> I'm sorry Joe but I totally disagree with this. There is no 'MOQ
> meta-level' in Robert Pirsig's MOQ. I think you're straying into Bo's
> SOL here. That has very little to do with the MOQ proper, imo, of
> course.
Phew! The 5th. level issue again. The MOQ as a "meta-level" is
not understood. I'll try again: Where do you find Newton's Physics
within Newton's Physics? Nowhere, yet it is the meta-platform
from where all who subscribe to Newton's Physics stands. This is
exactly MOQ's position, not that I think it will help much though.
The problem stems from the assertion that the MOQ is an
intellectual pattern. The fact that this makes DQ a static pattern is
countered by the assertion that the MOQ is just a metaphysics
about a Quality beyond all theorizing. The fact that the initial
Quality=Reality axiom is part of the MOQ and thus nullified is
swept under the carpet. Even by Pirsig who in annotation 102 in
LC says:
Except in the case of DQ, what is observed always
involves an interaction with ideas ... etc
Who does he believe will swallow this? It's the Quality=Reality
postulate in a different form and nothing in this world can prove
or disprove it, while a lot speaks for the Dynamic/Static split as
better than the Subject/Object one. I have sympathy with Pirsig's
many efforts to demonstrate that value is the groundstuff, but it is
a postulate and part and parcel of MOQ's DQ/SQ. Pirsig's
denouncing the MOQ has paralysed it.
IMO
Bo
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