Hi Ham See the Archer link I posted earlier. I find this hierarchy in my experience all the time. As an organism I need to eat and mate, as a citizen, worker and consumer I work, buy and vote, and value the country I live in, people I share it with, western culture, science, etc, that make this life & society possible. Lots of hierarchy here, and often some conflicts. As a western european individual I see lots of collective processes that are required for me to be possible at all, and as an active individual I generally have to act in response to and participating in collective activities. Ones individuality is often private, publicly we largely have roles to perform. We may need more democracy and equality to give us more opportunity to act as individuals and citizens as opposed to mere employees and subjects and consumers no doubt.
David M > Hi Ham > > >> What is the collectivist view? >> That I have arms, legs, eyes, language, culture >> and so do you. > > David, I think you know that's not what is meant by the collectivist view. > > As I explained to Arlo on 4/3, I find that the post-modern, elitist, > nihilistic concept of reality invariably hangs on a collectivist view of > mankind. This is reflected in Pirsig's philosophy, where 'mankind' is > relegated to biological and social levels and the individual is defined as > a > "pattern" of quality. Thus, for many here, man is a mythical entity--an > artifact of cultural evolution with 'intellect' left hanging at some yet > unresolved extracorporeal level. > > It's no secret that I deplore this deliberate exclusion of proprietary > awareness from the Quality thesis. I cannot imagine any philosophy that > dismisses subjective consciousness as meaningful or enlightening to > society. > For me the individual is central to existence. It is the individual's > values that define the experienced world, that determine the course of > history, and that ultimately relate human beingness to its primary source. > I view the universe as an anthropocentric system, with man as its > choicemaker. > > In an age where objective reality is everything and technology drives > "progress", people hunger for answers to the meaning of life and its > ultimate purpose. No longer does man rely on the spiritual beliefs of his > ancestors to support his existence. Religion and spirituality have been > preempted by more "enlightened" concepts. It's little comfort to be told > by > a philosopher that the world is evolving toward "betterness" through a > competition of levels, even less that the cognizant self is only an > "abstraction" of the inanimate universe. Unless man has a central role in > existential reality, he may as well be a biological offshoot of the > primates, programmed by nature to 'tread in his petty pace' 'til death > consumes him. > > Until we realize that cognizant awareness is central to existential > reality, > and that there would be no universe in its absence, we are doomed to > fulfilling Nietzsche's prophecy of a world without meaning, a life without > soul. The MoQ's substitution of a Quality hierarchy for subject/object > reality is not the solution we need. > > Regards, > Ham > > > Moq_Discuss mailing list > Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. > http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org > Archives: > http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ > http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/ > Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
