Arlo said to Craig: ...This is my point here, that there is no "intentional plan" being enacted by Platt's Quali-god. ...Without "chance" there is no freedom. It suggests necessary uncertainty from among all probabilities. It suggest there is no "plan". And thank "God" for that.
Krimel replied: Excellent example, Arlo! It illustrates that while we are accustomed to thinking of chains of probability what we experience is a nest of interwoven chains. Each chain follows its own particular logic but when they interact what matters is the SQ and DQ they introduce into the interactions. Every link in every chain of causality might be found to interact with every other link in every other chain. dmb says: I don't know if Arlo was painting a picture of three dimensional determinism, as you seem to have taken, Kriminel. If determinism asserts that all events occur within a perfect chain of causality and the MOQ rejects causality then the MOQ is far from being a determinism. We can see this in Pirsig's re-conception of physical laws as extremely persistent patterns of preference and his re-conception of natural selection as the accumulated effect of countless spur of the moment choices. Even on these levels, determinism is absent. [Krimel] I think the point you are missing here is that it is not so much chains of causality as webs of causality. Because causal chains are interconnected they influence each other. And it is not a three dimensional nest it is at least four dimensional. Frankly, I agree that Pirsig does, "...re-conception of physical laws as extremely persistent patterns of preference and his re-conception of natural selection as the accumulated effect of countless spur of the moment choices." But I think he either didn't quite get it or his terms were not quite clear enough. To say that physicals laws are "patterns of preference" is to say they are probabilistic. To say the evolution proceeds "... as the accumulated effect of countless spur of the moment choices." Is just to point to chance out comes. Determinism is not lost in any of this. It is just that determinism does not produce prediction as was once thought. Chaotic behavior is perfectly deterministic even reductionistic with no loss of freedom. [dmb] As William James pointed out, "chance" connotes randomness and chaos and the determinists shrink in horror at the thought of it but "chance" is actually an unflattering word for freedom, choice, possibilites. Without chance, reality is a closed system, a stupid machine, blind and dumb and meaningless. He also thought that all of philosophy could be divided into two basic categories, with the main difference being two types of temperament or attitude toward "chance". His temperament was such that he felt suffocated and depressed in a determined universe. As Pirsig says, its like living inside a dirty old sock. That's exactly how I feel. The MOQ, on the other hand, turns that sock inside out. We still have to live with the sock but now there is an openness and fresh air. But "nest of interwoven chains" would be a good name for a S&M dungeon. [Krimel] If the MoQ is to bring this breath of fresh air it will be through clearing the air about the identity of DQ and chance. The only problem with Pirsig's take on this is that he seems to assume that DQ produces 'betterness' which it does about half the time. The other half it produces 'worstness'. I don't see much difference in what we are both saying here, which is very odd to me. I think I even agree with your take on James for a change. Here is James' description of the "web of causality" that "nest of interwoven chains" from "A World of Pure Experience": "But the whole system of experiences as they are immediately given presents itself as a quasi-chaos through which one can pass out of an initial term in many directions and yet end in the same terminus, moving from next to next by a great many possible paths." Moq_Discuss mailing list Listinfo, Unsubscribing etc. http://lists.moqtalk.org/listinfo.cgi/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org Archives: http://lists.moqtalk.org/pipermail/moq_discuss-moqtalk.org/ http://moq.org.uk/pipermail/moq_discuss_archive/
